Rebreather FFM what's your set Up?

[tnt2020]

I have been day dreaming about what to get for Christmas this year and what to get in the future for my YBOD. This started while reading the article on the hammerhead in ADM. I really want to get a hammerhead but it seams like that will have to be for 2005 due to current delivery.

1.My first question is what FFM are people diving with a rebreather and which one they would dive if money was not an object.
2. I would also like to know total cost on FFM with a DSV with OC bailout and COMMS option.
3. I am also wanting to know if there is a FFM you would never dive.
4. Is your set up complete from 1 source or did you have to piece it together from multiple sources.
5. My current choices are AGA I have two OC and Divenet has a kit to convert to Rebreather, DR-600, Dreager Nova (Future not availabe for inspiration yet), Scubapro, Kirby Morgan Supermask Nato pod availabe in the future. Did I miss any.

I would greatly appreciate any experience you may have.

Thanks

TNT

[scubahubby]

HI,

I am using the JMC (Kirby/Morgan design) Supermask with my KISS rebreather. However I am not using the nato pod, I use the standard O/C pod since the KISS comes with a OC/CC DSV. My only complaint about the mask is that is that it limits visibility compaired to the low volume masks I used to use, not significantly but enough for me to notice it.

The only other FFM I considered was the AGA but I decided against it because 1) CO2 concerns because of the large airspace in the mask, and 2) the AGA forces airflow over the mask lense to aid in defogging which works great unless on O/C, but in a rebreather (warm moist gass) in cold water it can cause the lense to fog.

- Ozzy

[BigJetDriver]

I have been day dreaming about what to get for Christmas this year and what to get in the future for my YBOD. This started while reading the article on the hammerhead in ADM. I really want to get a Hammerhead but it seems like that will have to be for 2005 due to current delivery.

1.My first question is what FFM are people diving with a rebreather and which one they would dive if money was not an object.
2. I would also like to know total cost on FFM with a DSV with OC bailout and COMMS option.
3. I am also wanting to know if there is a FFM you would never dive.
4. Is your set up complete from 1 source or did you have to piece it together from multiple sources.
5. My current choices are AGA I have two OC and Divenet has a kit to convert to Rebreather, DR-600, Dreager Nova (Future not availabe for inspiration yet), Scubapro, Kirby Morgan Supermask Nato pod availabe in the future. Did I miss any.

I would greatly appreciate any experience you may have.

Thanks

TNT

TNT,

I can speak directly to your question, since I have some years of diving experience with the AGA, the EXO, and Kirby-Morgan hat and band-mask.

First, both the AGA and the Widolf DR-600 are excellent masks. I have used both extensively.

They are both in the same price range, and may easily be modified with the addition of a block to have a "bail-out" switch (or valve), and the second stage regulator of your choice. Divematics USA, Inc. will fit any regulator you choose to their very fine bail-out valve block. (I prefer this description, because this is actually the intended use for the device.)

I use the DR-600, with a comm set-up by OTS. I give it the edge over the AGA, because it is much more comfortable for long periods than the AGA, and it is much stronger (i.e. structurally tougher, and more durable). You will simply not find a more comfortable skirt on any FFM. Period. Full stop.

If you wish to see my mask, it is the one shown in th pics taken by Stefan Besier (Caveseeker7) and shown under the heading "Divematics" in his pictures taken at DEMA 2004.

Try here: http://www.therebreathersite.nl/divematics.htm

I have a military style through-water comm set-up made by OTS. It is powerful, reliable, and produces very high-quality audio. It is not, however, inexpensive.

PM me for more info.

Rob

[caveseeker7]

1. M-48 w/ NATO pod & bailout 2nd or DR-600 w/ bailout 2nd
I like the quality of the Widolf, but haven't yet had a chance to try it.
I used the K-M OC and it fit and worked well, hence it would be my first choice.
OC it would be the AGA though, very comfortable and reliable.

2. Depends on the mask and comms, integrated bailout etc.
Kinda helps to know what you're trying to price ... .
OTS has a downloadable pricelist I believe, Divematics has prices on their website as does TechBlue.

3. Ocean Reef FFM - I consider it crap.
Scubapro - way to big/wide for my face.

4. Again, it depends on your choice.
OTS builds excellent comms (the Buddy Phone works well, the 2010 is a step up in price, options and range - those are the ones I used. You may not be able to get BigJet's big power unit). They're also dealer for Interspiro, Dräger, K-M and Mantis FFMs. For OC-integrated bailout you would probably shop elsewhere, though.
Divematics, TechBlue, Millenium Divers, depends on the mask. Divematics will supply the Windolf with OC bailout, and can probably get it for you with comms, too.
TechBlue or Millenium Divers might be able to get you the M-48 w/ NATO pod.

5. The Mantis, a lot like the Scubapro in layout (mask connectors for primary, secondary and comms - for smaller faces and lower volume)

OTS (http://www.oceantechnologysystems.com/) - Comms and several FFMs
Divematics (http://www.divenet.com/divematics/) - Widolf, AGA CCR conversions and OC integrated DSVs
TechBlue (http://www.tech-blue.com/) - maybe M48/Nato pod
Millenium Divers (http://www.millenniumdivers.com/home.html) - maybe M48/Nato pod

There are several more of my pictures of the Widolf DR-600 (http://www.therebreathersite.nl/tiger_ccr.htm) hooked up to a Tiger CCR, by the way. ;)

[BigJetDriver]

Great pics, Stefan! Damn fine job!

[BigJetDriver]

HI,

The only other FFM I considered was the AGA but I decided against it because 1) CO2 concerns because of the large airspace in the mask, and 2) the AGA forces airflow over the mask lense to aid in defogging which works great unless on O/C, but in a rebreather (warm moist gass) in cold water it can cause the lense to fog.

- Ozzy

(1) Both the Widolf DR-600 and the AGA (actually called Divator MkII) use a small oro-nasal cup to prevent this.

(2) This IS a concern with all FFM's used with re-breathers.

Cheers!

[caveseeker7]

Rob - thanks.

hubby - when the AGA is used with RBs the gas path is changed, it stays in the oral-nasal pocket so it won't fog.

tnt - the M-48 reatins the bite piece and hence allows you to keep it in your mouth. There is a ratchet adjustment that makes that effortless and stops the bellows wobble that the OC version has. While using the comms you have to remove it.

[tnt2020]

I understood from reading the old post retaining the bite piece was important to keep CO2 down. Can any of the mask retain the mouth piece and have comms?

Tnt

[BigJetDriver]

I understood from reading the old post retaining the bite piece was important to keep CO2 down. Can any of the mask retain the mouth piece and have comms?

Tnt

No, your mother told you not to talk with your mouth full. :eyebrow:

Seriously, the purpose of the small oro-nasal cup is to reduce the "dead" air space and avoid the CO2 problem. It does work.

[caveseeker7]

I understood from reading the old post retaining the bite piece was important to keep CO2 down. Can any of the mask retain the mouth piece and have comms?

The problem is that you'll be very hard to understand with a bite piece in your mouth. OTS builds mikes into the DSV for the military, so that is a possibility. Then again I doubt the combat swimmers chat much. ;)

CO2 build up shouldn't be much of an issue with the M-48 as long as you don't do a Twain and tell stories during the entire dive. Through water comms are great for emergencies and brief messages, but for elaborate discussions you would want duplex and hardwire anyway. And if brief messages are all you use it for then CO2 build up shouldn't really be an issue.

That's theory, though, I never used a FFM with a CCR. BigJet has and does, so I asume he doesn't have a CO2 problem.

I'm not aware of any other mask retaining the regs bite piece.

Add-ited: You beat me to the post, Rob. ;)

[tnt2020]

If I get the Divenet DSV w/bail out block what second stage do you recomend? I also was unable to get on the Millenium divers site to see what they had to offer. I called Divematics and they said I could get an Apeks with the Dr 600 but it was too large if I had them put it on of the Divator MKII mask.

[BigJetDriver]

If I get the Divenet DSV w/bail out block what second stage do you recomend? I also was unable to get on the Millenium divers site to see what they had to offer. I called Divematics and they said I could get an Apeks with the Dr 600 but it was too large if I had them put it on of the Divator MKII mask.

Try the Poseidon "telephone" second stage.

[scubahubby]

I'm not aware of any other mask retaining the regs bite piece.

The JMC (KirbyMorgan) SuperMask when used with the OC pod does allow you to retain the mouthpiece in your mouth. Not sure about the Nato Pod.

[BigJetDriver]

The JMC (KirbyMorgan) SuperMask when used with the OC pod does allow you to retain the mouthpiece in your mouth. Not sure about the Nato Pod.

Of course, with the mouth-piece in you will not be able to use comms.

I chose the APEKS TX-100 second stage becuse of a need for deep-diving flow, and it was on hand. (I have a number of them.) In retrospect, I would choose something like the Poseidon "telephone" for its smaller size and good flow characteristics.

[caveseeker7]

The JMC (KirbyMorgan) SuperMask when used with the OC pod does allow you to retain the mouthpiece in your mouth. Not sure about the Nato Pod.

I am. :D
Have a look at the picture of the pod, it's right there.
The ratchet on top of the bellows keeps the mouyhpiece in the position you adjust it to. Not only does it make the mask more stable, but a whole lot more comfortable.

tnt, in #143 you can both see the purge valve, as well as the slot where the comms go (they're on both sides).

Also, you might try contacting Don Townsend (Millenium Divers) through IANTD's website (instructor search engine). IIRC he supplied a couple of the NATO pods to divers including Tigerscuba here on the board ... you can use the boards search engine to find his posts.

Cheers
Stefan

[caveseeker7]

I chose the APEKS TX-100 second stage becuse of a need for deep-diving flow, and it was on hand.

As it happens, I have another shot of the DR-600 from DEMA which had the Apeks attached. Thought I post it while I'm at it.

Is that yours, Rob? Doesn't look so bad sizewise, then again it's a mask that can make a Conshelf look small. ;)

I kinda like the battletank look though ... I have to give it a try. :D

[tnt2020]

BJD,

Is the Widolf DR-600 heavy or not. It looks like a solid unit and I can't help but feel a strain in my neck every time I look at it. You wrote it is very comfortable but I wanted to ask since I have never seen one in person. Will you or you mask be coming to Our world underwater? Do you dive only cold with your mask or on almost all of your dives?

tnt

[BigJetDriver]

As it happens, I have another shot of the DR-600 from DEMA which had the Apeks attached. Thought I post it while I'm at it.

Is that yours, Rob? Doesn't look so bad sizewise, then again it's a mask that can make a Conshelf look small. ;)

I kinda like the battletank look though ... I have to give it a try. :D

Stefan,

Yeah, that one is mine. It truly is 'battle-tank tough"!! That second stage is the APEKS TX-100 second. It is a great easy-breathing regulator, especially when deep.

Cheers!

[BigJetDriver]

BJD,

Is the Widolf DR-600 heavy or not. It looks like a solid unit and I can't help but feel a strain in my neck every time I look at it. You wrote it is very comfortable but I wanted to ask since I have never seen one in person. Will you or you mask be coming to Our world underwater? Do you dive only cold with your mask or on almost all of your dives?

tnt

TNT2020,

Hi! The mask looks heavy, but it is not at all. In water it is very neutral. I've used many FFM's, and this is by far THE most comfortable!

I try to stay out of cold water if I can!!! :scared:

I use it for situations requiring comm, and just because I like its comfort.

Cheers!

[tnt2020]

I want you guys to know I am very good at talking with my mouth full do to the many times I have put my foot in my mouth. I also don't always do what my mother tells me to do too boring. That being said.


I understood quite well I will have to learn not to go into any long monologs to prevent CO2 build up while diving a FFM and Rebreather and to make sure to Keep a normal breathing patern.

I have still been Unable to get a decision made but I am starting to get total cost on 3 units.

DR-600 $1950.00 w/o comms
Divator MKII $960.00 Plus one of my existing Mask existing Comms may not work after modification
Kirby Morgan super mask $575+ 750 for dsv with bail out block. No comms.

Starting out I was Leaning toward the Kirby Morgan, But I like to have the best so I really like the Widolf, My pocket book likes the Divator Price. what I need is a pool and 3 mask to try.

TNT

[tnt2020]

BJD,

My question becomes is the DR-600 worth $700.00 more than the supper mask?

I can Sell one of my Divators it is new in the box and then get one of the above mask.
Some personel dive info
I am new to rebreathers and won't add it to my unit untill I have 25 or 50 dives and feel comfortable. I won't dive over 150' for at least a year. I hope to dive the Saratoga in March 2006 on a CCR trip to Bikini. Local diving is Great lakes wrecks. I have to dive with OC buddies in Chicago or drive to Minnesota for CCR budies.

I think the Super mask may be easier with OC buddies. I like the Supermask because it is easy to equalize, Cheaper and very easy to bail out. Don't like limited viz comments! I am only reading these factors and looking at photos so should I dump the extra 700 for the DR 600 I hate buyers remorse and don't want to wish I had a better Mask or a feel I over paid for something extra I'm not using. Please advise as you seem to have tried all and have 2000 dives. I normally dive 100 times a year if that helps. I hope the personel info helps some?

TNT

[DrMike]

Forget the KM48 supermask with the Nato POD - They (the Nato pods) are only being sold to the Military.

Only a handful were ever sold to civilians (I was lucky to be one of them) they may be re-releasing it to the civilian market at some stage. I think it was in part a liability issue.

The nato pod is great, no CO2 issues, you use the ratchet to pull the mouthbite out of your mouth to speak into the mask.

Ive used it to bail at 100m and it worked fine (high He content) even though the reg isnt rated very deep from a EN250 viewpoint.

The ability to bail off the mask (by removing the pod only and shoving another reg in your gob) is a real safety bonus to me.

My best advice is to buy the KM supermask with the scuba pod and shove a KISS oc/cc valve in the hole.

Both are great bits of kit and that will give you more flexibility and safety over a fixed reg FFM simply because you can spit out the pod if it screws up or you are out of gas and go on a buddys stage/surface supplied/etc etc without losing your vision or having to carry a spare scuba mask.

[BigJetDriver]

BJD,

My question becomes is the DR-600 worth $700.00 more than the "super" mask?

I can sell one of my Divators it is new in the box and then get one of the above masks.

I hate buyers remorse and don't want to wish I had a better Mask or a feel I over paid for something extra I'm not using.
TNT

TNT,

(1) I would have to answer with an un-qualified "yes" to your first question.

(2) That would help pay for it, and you WILL (I am certain!) like it better than the AGA or the "super" mask.

(3) I agree with you completely on this last point!

Here is my suggestion. I would wait before making any choice on the FFM issue. You really do need to get some experience on your unit BEFORE going the FFM route. There are some very good reasons for using one, but it does take some more training, and there are procedures required for proper use.

I'm not trying to discourage you. Just counseling a little more time before you make the leap.

In the interests of full disclosure, I will point out that I am personal friends with Tracy Robinette, the maker of the Widolf. This does not affect my statement that the Widolf is the most comfortable and strongest FFM that I have ever found. That is why I chose it. I cannot say that I have used EVERY full-face mask that has EVER existed, but I have certainly used every one that is generally available. I stand by my statement about the Widolf.

Call my toll-free voice pager, and leave me a contact number. I will call you back and discuss this at length.

Cheers!

[BigJetDriver]

The ability to bail off the mask (by removing the pod only and shoving another reg in your gob)---

Hey Mike,

You need to be careful about how you phrase that when you talk about opening the flap and stuffing things in your gob, considering what the slang name is for that mask!!! :11ztongue

Hee-hee-hee!!! :eyebrow:

[MikeR]

Hi Bigjet,

How have you been. I called divematics and will be ordering myself a DR-600 this week, with integrated OC. Anything else I should think about?(add-ons)

Mike

[iain/hsm]

BJD,

Is the Widolf DR-600 heavy or not. It looks like a solid unit and I can't help but feel a strain in my neck every time I look at it. You wrote it is very comfortable but I wanted to ask since I have never seen one in person. Will you or you mask be coming to Our world underwater? Do you dive only cold with your mask or on almost all of your dives?

tnt

You either like these FFM or hate them, The original Widolf was built like a brick SH and doesnt seem to have changed much apart from some plastic parts but unlike the band masks KMB-10 or Heliox 18 in there day was less forgiving when you wrap it into something. Due to its weight and the spider strap assembly they can slide off your face! The band mask type masks with the attached hoods seemed to fair better as it was more difficult to loose them! when attached to a 4 core umbilical.
The jpeg is of a mixed gas variant from the original Widolf factory before old man Widolf sold to Tracy Robinette, we used them for light weight diving. The oral nasal (without the nasal) mouthpiece was the bit of interest in the photo. Also the face seal rubber is "stiched" using little plastic hooks over the face surround very clever idea.

The other FFM with a mouthpiece is the standard NATO Admiralty Full face mask
Been around for the last fifty years also used by USN & MoD this has an interesting water filled face seal surround for a perfect seal, best design ever for a FFM (IMHO)
You spit out the mouthpiece *** and yell, Also the wide vision allows a clear view, only problem was the bog awful nose clip!