Ditch the snorkel?

[MASS-Diver]

As I move toward a DIR single tank rig ( I have a 120hps) I've begun to dive with a 7" hose (wrapped around my head). Should I continue having my snorkel on my mask (it catches the reg hose on some OOA drills), I don't use the snorkel that much except maybe on long surface swims in choppy seas?

Also, it seems that alternate air sources attached to the low infaltor hose going to ones' BCD are "looked down on" as non-DIR, probabley because they are hard to get at. I was sold one at my local dive shop because they told me it was easier to get to than an octapus that's draggin in the sand or clipped to your chest (guess they didn't think of attaching it around your neck). Am I right about this view of alt integrated air sources?

One more thing, should my 2nd backup reg (coming off a single first stage) come off the right side and just go right up to my neck (where it's attached), what should the hose lenght be?

Sorry if any of these questions are unclear. Thank you very much for your help, the links on DIR have cleared alot up for me, I can see the value in DIR diving and I'm trying to "get my act toghter." :)

[Scubaroo]

Hi MASS-Diver,

You sound a lot like me - "single tank progressively moving to DIR Diver"! I've ditched the snorkel, more because it was a pain in the kelp, twisted my mask strap, and was a general nuisance throughout the dive. I still plan to use it one some dives though. Didn't today for a shore dive in Monterey and had no problems.

Your backup regulator will come from the right side, and rest under your neck on a necklace made from either bungee or surgical tubing (surgical tubing works fine for me). The "definitive" DIR hose length is 22" I think.

Do a search on the word "GUE" and you'll find lots of postings on here about DIR diving, and links to websites with lots of equipment pictures.

cheers

Ben

[Uncle Pug]

In a word... yes.
Snorkels are great for snorkeling.

As for the alternate air source on the BC inflator do a search on AIR II or wait until someone post the link for the discussion that has gone on about it.

If you get to take a DIR fundamentals class you will immediately come to the conclusion that it is not a good idea. I could give all the reasons why but:
1) you can read about them in the threads on scubaboard
2) you will only really get the picture after a DIRF
3) I don't want to get the Air II guys mad at me
:D

[Rick Murchison]

I use my snorkel frequently and you can't have it!
Just last week I was in Grand Cayman; the wall started about 250 yards out from the beach at my hotel... used my snorkel quite a bit swimming out to the wall before starting down. (Yes, I can swim on my back, too, but often don't want to)
If I am going to penetrate a wreck or dive a cave I leave the snorkel behind.
On rare occasions I carry a snorkel in my BC for use on the surface. Rare, because I don't like to do that.
As for the integrated safe second, my opinion is that this is a great rig for recreational open water diving, where all you'll ever do with one is make an ascent, but is not acceptable for overhead (physical or decompression) environments.
Rick :) :) :)

[voidware]

I haven't used my snorkel since my open water checkout dives. I say drop it. In my case it only leads to problems. It causes drag. Everyone has descended on their snorkel (or jumped off the boat with it in). Its another piece of gear to carry around and clean out. On long surface swims, I prefer to swim on my back. The only time I could see it being any use is if you are spending a long time floating in choppy water, but why are you diving in such bad conditions and why are you spending time on the surface?

Ditch it. I promise you won't miss it.

brandon

[JamesK]

Just another entanglement hazard. Drop it. If you really want one for boat dives, get a folding one and put it in a pocket.

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by voidware
The only time I could see it being any use is if you are spending a long time floating in choppy water, but why are you diving in such bad conditions and why are you spending time on the surface?
Because... that's where the good diving is... and I'm not passing it up just because I need a snorkel to get there.
I say "Give yours up." I'm keeping mine.
As for swimming the open ocean on your back, go ahead... aspirating a little salt water every now and then is probably good for you.
Bottom line, I really don't have any druthers at all about what others choose to do re: snorkels. Nor does it affect my decision when folks list why they ditched theirs...
And as for MASS-Diver's question, I say "Make up your own mind."
Rick

[devjr]

No hard and fast rule on this. A couple comments though; Freediving spearfishermen (with snorkels) swim in kelp with no problems. Normally, they use a smooth J-pipe with no special valves, etc to catch on stuff. However, swimming on your back with SCUBA could be an entanglement issue. Also, the sea lions get a good shot at your arse.

[MNScuba]

I'm glad this question was asked. In my VERY limited experience, I too get annoyed with my snorkel. It twists my mask strap and gets twisted around in odd positions. I find myself trying to 'untangle' it more often then I use it. But at the same time, I don't want to get stuck somewhere without it and I do like to snorkel around a bit.

Could it be that some snorkels are better than others for the twisting part? Or maybe mine is just connected incorrectly (too far forward or backward from the mask).

[Uncle Pug]

The original poster indicated that he was moving toward DIR... and using the long hose....

The answer has to be *ditch the snorkel*... do not have a snorkel attached to your mask while using the long hose....

This is not because of the problems you will have in OOA drills....
It is because you will strip your mask off in a real OOA....

Now if you are not moving to DIR and are not using the long hose....
If you like snorkeling and don't mind having one dangling there unused for the majority of the dive then by all means have at it.

However I think that it is a unwarranted risk of entanglement for any scuba diver to wear a snorkel attached to the mask... better to keep it in your pocket and shove it up under the mask strap when snorkeling.

BTW... if you are moving toward DIR you should be carrying a spare mask in your pocket and not a snorkel.

[BILLB]

I see on many posts a thread running through the board and it is mostly confined to early experience OW divers. The alternate air source (octopus, backup, etc.) is not primarily for the diver attached to it. The alternate air source (when buddy diving) is for your buddy and anyone else needing assistance in an OOA situation.

This leads to the intergrated BC second air source. In this arrangement you will donate your primary regulator and in turn have to use the BC reg. The down side to this is you, the rescue diver will have very limited range of head motion and additional difficulty operating the BC power inflator/deflator. In addition, I have not seen any definitive specifications on how well these intergrated air sources perform. If you are going to pay extra for the intergrated BC air source consider instead of using that extra money to upgrade the standard "octopus" with a primary grade regulator (higher performance).

Unless a diver is using a cannister light with the battery cannistor mounted under the right arm, a 7 foot hose is probably more trouble than it is worth. I use a 5 foot hose for all recreational diving with my single tank. The hose wraps under my arm and around the head neatly with no excess.

Snorkels have a place in scuba. Yes, they serve no useful purpose underwater. But, if you find yourself as a resuce diver and you are sharing air, the possibility of arriving at the surface with no air in the tank could happen. Swimming on your back to the boat with suface currents can get frustrating. Snorkeling to the boat will allow you to look up often so as to stay on course and effect a shorter return. Many divers store a snokel either in a BC pocket or buy one that is designed to fold up for storage. Dry suit user usually have a pocket attached for this purpose.

[MASS-Diver]

Thanks for all the excellent advice. I think I'm going to take a break from the snorkel, except maybe in extreme weather condtions (if you only dive in perfect condtions, you won't be loggin much bottom time here in New England). Although the snokel might find a place in one of my pockets.

Uncle Pug, even in a controlled OOA drill my hose fouled on my snorkle a few times, I could easily see how in a "real life" OOA situation one could have his mask ripped right off.


Although I have a single tank (w/pony), I choose a 7' hose instead of 5' hose because I was told a 5' would too short for someone (OOA) to follow me "nose to fins" out of a wreck. I don't know if this info is correct, but, the 7' seems managable so far.

Thanks again for the advice.

[BILLB]

My post on this matter considers only OW recreational diving. Wreck penetration diving is another displine. In addition to the seven foot hose you probably should be using some type of long burn light system. This usually means a battery cannister. I am not DIR but I have heard that cannister mounting on the back or butt is not recommended. For stream lining, it is under the right arm. Then the seven foot hose excess will not have to be packed into the waist.

In wrecks and caves, the seven foot hose works very well.

[MASS-Diver]

I just read a bunch of older threads about intergerated air sources, some very good points were made.


One more questions, a pretty minor one:

When I bought my 7' hose, one of the guys at the LDS (who despises all that is "wrekcie-techie") remarked, "you know that the longer hose is going to make it harder to draw air and lower your reg performance due to the increased resistnce of the longer hose"....any merit to this (just curious)?

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug
The original poster indicated that he was moving toward DIR... and using the long hose....

The answer has to be *ditch the snorkel*... do not have a snorkel attached to your mask while using the long hose....

This is not because of the problems you will have in OOA drills....
It is because you will strip your mask off in a real OOA....

Now if you are not moving to DIR and are not using the long hose....
If you like snorkeling and don't mind having one dangling there unused for the majority of the dive then by all means have at it.

However I think that it is a unwarranted risk of entanglement for any scuba diver to wear a snorkel attached to the mask... better to keep it in your pocket and shove it up under the mask strap when snorkeling.

BTW... if you are moving toward DIR you should be carrying a spare mask in your pocket and not a snorkel.
Could it be possible that DIR isn't the end-all and be-all for all kinds of diving? If I'm wearing a seven foot hose, then a snorkel is out... if I'm making a long surface swim in choppy water without using my back gas then I need to use a snorkel... and I don't really have any place to stow the snorkel on my minimilist tropical BC... oh! I should be lugging a backplate and harness and STA instead, right?
Sigh...
If I'm flying above 55,000' then I wear a full pressure suit to prevent instant death in the event of explosive decompression. I could argue that the same rig should be worn to fly a Cessna 150 - after all, it provides better fire protection... but as for me, I'll stick with regular street clothes.
I own a seven foot hose.
I own an extra mask.
I own doubles.
I own a cannister light.
I own a backplate & harness.
And I use 'em, too. When the dive calls for it.
And I use a snorkel when the dive calls for it.
Rick

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

Could it be possible that DIR isn't the end-all and be-all for all kinds of diving? If I'm wearing a seven foot hose, then a snorkel is out...

if I'm making a long surface swim in choppy water without using my back gas then I need to use a snorkel...

And I use a snorkel when the dive calls for it.
Rick
That is all good Rick...
But your answering a question that wasn't asked...
And methinks you doth protest too much ;)

BTW... some of us don't need a snorkel for that long swim in choppy water without using our back gas... :D

[BILLB]

The air pressure is the same at both ends of the hose. Nothing is lost with the longer hose. You may waste a little bit more air when disassembling the rig but at this time your dive is over.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by MASS-Diver
"you know that the longer hose is going to make it harder to draw air and lower your reg performance due to the increased resistnce of the longer hose"....any merit to this (just curious)?
The guy is a knuckle head....

If you are going to try to scare someone into not using a long hose then use something that could really happen like:

"Don't you know that a panicked OOA will sneak up behind you and strangle you with your primary?!?!"

Oh... you're right... that can't happen either... :D

To answer your question... no the long hose will not decrease the performance of your 2nd stage... the IP can supply more gas than you can breath and at anything >100 you are going to be using a helium mix if you are really DIR so the viscosity of the gas will still not be an issue.

[JamesK]

If the performance of your regulators was that greatly effected by a couple additional feet of hose, you should strap your tank to your belly and breath off of the valve. Intermidiate Pressure remains the same from one end to the other. It does not all of a sudden drop down to a lower pressure the farther it goes.

[MASS-Diver]

Thanks guys, I figured the guy was wrong (as I purchased the hose anyways).

[Wendy]

I agree with BillB about the air 2 thing. Just try an OOAemergency drill, donating your primary, and breathing off that air2, and try to use your inflator to get both you and the buddy to the surface. Doesn't seem like it would be that easy. And an air2 with air shares out of a cave or wreck is awful, I've seen it done in cavern classes.

Snorkel? What's that? Actually I did have to wear one in the pool today for a class. I don't know what I was thinking when I bought this huge snorkel from hell. I almost mistaked it for my inflator once. :eek: I'm surprised that no one has mentioned those retractable snorkels. I think Scuabapro makes one. It is compact, fits in a pocket, doesn't take up much space, and if you need it on the surface just slip it under your mask strap and then you're good to go. I've never used one, anyone have any experience with them?

[MNScuba]

Off Topic Warning

But why on earth would you use your inflator while ascending? This is not a valid argument against the Air2. And for what little air you would want to put in, a manual inflation would do the trick.

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Wendy
I agree with BillB about the air 2 thing. Just try an OOAemergency drill, donating your primary, and breathing off that air2, and try to use your inflator to get both you and the buddy to the surface. Doesn't seem like it would be that easy. And an air2 with air shares out of a cave or wreck is awful, I've seen it done in cavern classes.

Snorkel? What's that? Actually I did have to wear one in the pool today for a class. I don't know what I was thinking when I bought this huge snorkel from hell. I almost mistaked it for my inflator once. :eek: I'm surprised that no one has mentioned those retractable snorkels. I think Scuabapro makes one. It is compact, fits in a pocket, doesn't take up much space, and if you need it on the surface just slip it under your mask strap and then you're good to go. I've never used one, anyone have any experience with them?
Couple of points...
(1) The Air-2 and the Air Source both work just fine for both inflation and deflation of the BC while being breathed during an ascent. Neither are suitable for overhead environments, because the only acceptable body position that allows venting the BC is upright, looking up... that is, during an ascent in unrestricted water.
(2) The Scubapro folding snorkel is dangerous - a disaster - (unless they've changed it) - there is a purge just below the mouthpiece that has no sump. Result - any attempt to purge the snorkel just blows air out the purge and no head pressure ever builds to clear the tube. I bought two of these pieces of junk (based on a short write-up in Rodale's - who obviously never actually got the things in the water) when they first came out - raised enough hell with Scubapro that they sent me two purgeless mouthpieces, with which the snorkels work fine. An alternative fix is to fill the purge with silicone caulk!
Once fixed it will fit in most BC pockets.
Rick

[Wendy]

Sorry, I tend to use the term 'inflator' for the piece of equipment and not the action you are doing with it. Wouldn't you need to use the deflate button to release air to control the ascent? Wouldn't you also have to add or release air from the OOA diver's BC? How many hands do you have to perform all these tasks? IMHO I think it is easier to just have an octo (on a necklace) that I can breath from rather than have to perfrom multi tasks with the air2 I'm breathing off of.

[JamesK]

Wendy,

I understand your concerns, but find them slightly invalid. Why would you need extra hands to deflate your BC when using Air2? The action to deflate yours and your partners BC's are the same no matter what system you are using. It just so happens that you are grabbing your inflator hose from your mouth, instead of your chest. I have practiced OOA acsents with people using Air2, and it did not seem to make for more task loading.

This is simply my opinion, and I could be wrong.

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Big James
Wendy,

I understand your concerns, but find them slightly invalid. Why would you need extra hands to deflate your BC when using Air2? The action to deflate yours and your partners BC's are the same no matter what system you are using. It just so happens that you are grabbing your inflator hose from your mouth, instead of your chest. I have practiced OOA acsents with people using Air2, and it did not seem to make for more task loading.

This is simply my opinion, and I could be wrong.
You aren't wrong... indeed, if anything the deflator is easier to find since it's right there at your mouth. The integrated inflator/safe second is designed to do only one thing - to allow a safe open water air sharing ascent, with the advantage of one less hose; one less set of failure points associated with another hose. It does this quite well... but it is not suitable for fine tuned buoyancy control while using anti-silting techniques, or for long-term use, or for sight-seeing, and is therefore not the rig of choice for overhead environments.
Rick

[JamesK]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison
... but it is not suitable for fine tuned buoyancy control while using anti-silting techniques, or for long-term use, or for sight-seeing, and is therefore not the rig of choice for overhead environments.


I agree there. I was simply speaking in terms of OW.

[Joe R.]

I too think it wise to 'carry' a snorkel in a pocket. I put a pocket on my drysuit and wetsuit and keep a low profile mask,snorkel and wet notes in the pocket.
I dive in the northeast and have seen boats pull anchor and drift away. I have heard 'recently' of a boat sinking while the divers were still down. Swimming on your back for a long distance gets old quick. I bought one of the collapsable Sherwood models that fits easily into a pocket. I tried the scuba pro folding snorkel and found that is too big for some pockets.

[large_diver]

MD,

Going back to your original question....

Regarding your back-up reg -- yes it comes directly from your first stage to your neck. Most DIR folks will say 22" is the optimal length.

For single tank OW set-ups without a canister light, most folks suggest a shorter primary hose (5 or 6 feet instead of 7), since you can pass it directly from your first stage under your right arm and across the chest instead of taking the longer route down the side of your body to your hip before passing across your chest.

I'm a DIR neophyte myself and I've been using a 7 foot hose for about 15 dives now. While it has worked fine (I practice deploying/re-stowing all the time), I am starting to think that a shorter primary hose might be a little more streamlined and less likely to pop out from under the edge of my BC. I just ordered 5 and 6 foot hoses the other night from Extreme Exposure. I'm going to set-up both and see how they feel -- hope to get this in the water next weekend. I'll let you know what size I decide on.

Snorkel -- I would say get rid of it given the potential for snagging it when deploying or restowing a long primary hose. If you still want one for long surface swims -- perhaps you can get a snorkel that would fit in a BC pocket.

Feel free to send me a private message if you have more questions. I don't pretend to be a DIR expert, but since like you I'm still in the "I am new to DIR and how do I learn more" phase, I can relate!

Hope this is helpful.

-Chris

[MASS-Diver]

Chris and Joe, thank you very much for the advice/inforamtion. As I continue to move toward a DIR set-up, I'm sure I'll have more questions and it's good to know that people of this board (espicially local guys diving in similar conditions) are so knowledeable and helpful.

I known I've mentioned this before but, for guys in MA, Hathaway Pond in the Cape is still the clearest I've ever seen it. It is a pond, but, it can be a fun place for training or a night dive (although it gets crowded as Spring rolls in). There's a wreck, a car, and a training platform. Depth= 50'max

[large_diver]

Beautiful Hathaway's -- site of my OW cert dives 2 years ago.

I still have such fond memories of that old Saab.....

[large_diver]

MASS-Diver,

A follow-up regarding primary hose reg length....

Just received my new hoses from Extreme Exposure last night -- 5 and 6 foot.

I had been using a 7 foot hose on my single tank set-up. When playing around with it in the pool last week, I began to feel it was too long...this from doing lots of doffing/donning in the water, etc.

I tried the 5 foot hose first -- routing it directly under my arm, around the back of my head and into my mouth -- felt comfy and secure and looked streamlined in the mirror.

6 foot was definitely too long -- not long enough to route down the side of my body and hook under the edge of my BC like the 7' and too much extra hose if routed directly under my arm.

Hope to get it in the water down on the Cape tomorrow.

Hope this helps -- your mileage may vary.

-Chris

[Hal Iotis]

Thanks, LD :D ! This is exactly the type of information that I need. I can't afford to buy various hose lengths for my Poseidon, so I was hoping 5' would do the job without experimentation.

[large_diver]

Yeah, I've built this rather large hose inventory that I don't use anymore ;-)

[Scubaroo]

Hey Chris,

You should be able to return the 6' hose to EE for a refund - I think they do refunds on everything for 30 days after purchase.

Ben

[large_diver]

Ben,

Thanks for the reminder -- that's exactly what I'll do with the 6 footer. Then again, there's probably someone out there on E-Bay who will pay 50% more for it than I'll get back from EE ;-)

-C

[MASS-Diver]

Chris, thanks for the info, do you feel the 5' is still long enough to offer the advantages of the 7', for OOA situations and exiting in an overhead environment?


Let me know the conditions if you get in the water this weekend. Thanks again.

[Joe R.]

Don't mean to butt in but you definetly want a 7' hose for tandom swimming.:hiding:

[MASS-Diver]

Thanks Joe,maybe use the 5' for OW, but, break out the 7' for overhead stuff, afterall if you are using a single w/ a 5' you probably should not doing any diving where you need to tandem swim any real distance, if the dive requires that, doubles are probabley callled for right?

[Ari]

of using a snorkel.

I do my swimming on my back and it's sufficient for me. Needless to explain, I don't carry a snorkel.

Ari :)

[large_diver]

MD,

Yes -- I am exclusively an OW diver, so my comments are geared towards that type of diving.

Went diving at Garbage Beach in Woods Hole yesterday. The weather was a little cold -- in fact as I crossed the Sagamore bridge, I saw about an inch of snow on the ground -- ugh!

Garbage Beach is a small beach adjacent to the Woods Hole Oceanographic institute. Air temp was about 45 or so. Water temp was about 43-44. 3 of us (including me) were diving in wetsuits. Max depth 50 feet. Total bottom time 38 minutes. Visibilty was very good -- I'd say 25 feet or so. GB faces due south -- winds were out of the north, so conditions were nice and calm.

This site is also about 500 yards from the Martha's Vineyard ferry terminal. A ferry came in while we where underwater -- the vibration was pretty amazing (the ferries apparently have 10 foot props).

The wetsuit divers were a little chilly (my hands were rather icy) after dive 1, so we opted for lunch at local diner instead of another dive....still, it was great to be back in the water exploring a new site I've never been to before!

-Chris

[Bob3]

I usually have a plain old J-tube snorkel if I'm doing the scuba thing (no need if using a hookah).
I have a snorkel keeper threaded on a d-ring & just stuff the tube under my mask strap when I need it. I don't like them attached to my mask strap while I'm underwater, but for any amount of surface swimming, they're indespensible.
Your mileage will no doubt vary with the kind of diving you do.

[Lost Yooper]

There's nothin' more annoying than a snorkel after being away from one for so long. I had to use one for a DM class (PADI) -- what a drag!! Prior to that class, I didn't even know if I still owned a snorkel. Ditch it.

I don't particulary care for a 5' hose as compared to a 7'. The 7' hose is more comfortable IMO. I would probably like the 5' hose for thin wetsuit diving in the tropics, but I use my 7' for all my dives with great delight. I don't mind a 40" hose, but the 7' is the best all around hose. Just tuck the excess inside you waist strap or hook it on your knife if you don't have a light.

Good luck.

Mike

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
I don't mind a 40" hose
Mike, when you have used a 40" hose did you route it under your arm and didn't it want to pull down on the regulator in your mouth?

[Lost Yooper]

No, I just had it loop around. I didn't like it under the arm. I've been playing with it for the last four months. It works, but the 7 footer is the most comfortable and most streamlined, IMO.

Mike

[large_diver]

MA Diver --

A few more clarifying comments on my set-up. I still dive a jacket BC...thus my choice of a 5 footer. As Lost Yoop and Pug say above, a 7 footer may work if you have something to loop the extra hose around...e.g. a canister light or a knife on your belt. For me, I felt like extra hose had a tendency to opo out sometimes if I didn't have it stowed just right -- not a huge deal....and this mainly occurred after deploying/restowing underwater.

So, given these variables -- the 5 footer works for me!