Is Air Integration THAT important?

[Stryker]

I have been considering dive computers for a few weeks now, and am down to 2 choices -- The Suunto Cobra and the Suunto Vyper.

They pretty much do the exact same thing (from what I get) with the exception of the air integration.... Now my question is, if I pay good attention to my SPG, will I get the same benefit with the Vyper (also saving $200) as with the Cobra?

I am really into the idea of the wrist mount computer, but am not ready to spend $800+ on a hoseless computer... Any objective input would be greatly appreciated...

[BigJetDriver]

I have been considering dive computers for a few weeks now, and am down to 2 choices -- The Suunto Cobra and the Suunto Vyper.

They pretty much do the exact same thing (from what I get) with the exception of the air integration.... Now my question is, if I pay good attention to my SPG, will I get the same benefit with the Vyper (also saving $200) as with the Cobra?

I am really into the idea of the wrist mount computer, but am not ready to spend $800+ on a hoseless computer... Any objective input would be greatly appreciated...

Seth,

The Cobra is a very fine computer, and very easy to use. It is nice to have it all on one "dial", so to speak. If you get it, get the quick dis-connect to go with it. I makes it easy to remove from the hose, and easier to protect it in transport.

Cheers!

Rob Davie

[Uncle Pug]

If you regularly check your SPG you really have no need of a tank pressure read out on your wrist IMO. By regularly I mean at set intervals Soon you will develop a feel for what your SPG will read before you look at it... in fact that is something you should practice doing.

[Stryker]

Now being a pilot, I am used to "regularly" checking gauges/instruments.... I am used to have 8-12 different gauges to manage... I dont feel that it will be a problem at all, but I would like to know if I will get the same benefit from both of them... I know the Cobra takes into account how hard you breathe, but will I still be able to "judge" how much air I have with a computer that is NON-air integrated?

[Uncle Pug]

I can and I expect you could do even better than me.

Even when I switch from a single 104 to double 72s or a single AL80 I can call my pressure either dead on or at least within 50 psi. And yes, even with changing work load and depth.

And it really isn't hard to judge how much time you have left after you've been doing it for a while. It just kinda becomes intuitive if you know what I mean.

For all practical purposes an SPG that reads in 100# increments gives you a 50# resolution and that is more than close enough.

[Stryker]

Well I have to say you have definitely lived up to the title "voice of reason".... I am feeling that with the $200 price difference that I get more functionally and economically out of the Vyper.... I had a feeling that the air integration played a LARGE part in the calculated bottom time from the computer...

Then I thought of something I have been told several times... You are typically limited on your bottom time by the air you carry (esp since right now I only dive singles).... And since I will not be doing any deco. dives, I am starting to think that the air inegration is just an added "bonus"... any thoughts?



Plus if I get the Vyper, its a wrist mount, so dont have to worry about the quick disconnect.. ;)

[scubadobadoo]

Let me save you some money and time. Most divers that get a hoseless AI end up buying a bkup SPG ANYWAY just in case the hoseless computer fails, eventhough many bought the hoseless to avoid having more hoses! Follow me? If I had to do it over, I wouldn't do the hoseless AI thing. Wrist mount with a small spg is what I would do. That said, like the Vyper, my Atmos Elite is a very cool hoseless computer. Too expensive, but cool. I will also add that, much to my surprise, I haven't lost signal once yet. Surprisingly reliable technology THUS FAR. I still use a bkup spg though. ;) Good luck with your decision. DSAO!

Sorry--edit--confused vyper and vytec computers---duh!

[OE2X]

A couple of years ago I got a AI Uwatec NitroxZ. I used it for a few dives. Then I got an SPG and took off the AI feature. Now I use the computer only as a bottom timer and depth gauge. Wish I had saved the money in the first place.

I personally don't like or recommend people buying the consoles. It is much better to have your depth and bottom info located on your wrist - right wrist. You can easily see it at all times and if you are changing your buoyancy with your left hand you can keep an eye on the gauge.

[Stryker]

Thank you for the objective opinion... I know how some people get soo wrapped up in the computer that they purchased, that they feel that no other computer comes close to it.... I feel confident now in buying a NON air integrated computer.... Being in the military and not made of money, its hard to have the "best" equipment, but I sure try.. ;) haha thanks to everyone for your input...

[Stryker]

OE2X you just brought something to my attention that I did not think of before... the buoyancy issue is fairly important and with a console you cant control both that and pay attention to the computer at the same time.... esp on ascent you need to pay attention to the depth for when you reach the safety stop depth.... You just added fuel to my fire to pick the wrist mount... thanks!

[OE2X]

FWIW - I think you will be very happy with a Suunto. Their products are excellent. You can also change out the battery instead of sending it in to Uwatec.

[Stryker]

thats a very good point... ive been told how much it costs just to change the battery, and I couldnt believe how much it cost.... the user replaceable battery is a very nice feature...

[StSomewhere]

I have a Cobra. So far I like it VERY well. Like the others said, nice to have it all in one place.


A couple of years ago I got a AI Uwatec NitroxZ. I used it for a few dives. Then I got an SPG and took off the AI feature. Now I use the computer only as a bottom timer and depth gauge. Wish I had saved the money in the first place.
OTOH, don't underestimate OE2X's advice. If you decide to go tech the Cobra could be a liability (and a really expensive one at that). If you get into all the mixed gas stuff, its not gonna cut it, and the fact is it won't even be that great of a bottom timer.

But still its a really nice recreational computer.


thats a very good point... ive been told how much it costs just to change the battery, and I couldnt believe how much it cost.... the user replaceable battery is a very nice feature...
If you buy from a Scubapro dealer, they will change the batteries on your Uwatec computer for you for free, for life. So its not quite as bad as it sounds.

[Stryker]

Why do you feel it would not be good for tech? I am looking to getting into cave and wreck diving, and want something I can grow into....

[lamont]

Why do you feel it would not be good for tech? I am looking to getting into cave and wreck diving, and want something I can grow into....

Definitely get the wrist mounted Vyper. When you get into more serious cave and wreck diving you can set it into gauge mode, and you won't have a console presenting an entaglement hazard.

[Stryker]

But what about the SPG? it is still the same number of hoses coming off the 1st stage correct? Or is the SPG not as big of a factor in Tech diving as is bottom timer and deco timer?

[StSomewhere]

The tech divers all use an SPG on a short hp hose, usually just long enough to clip to their waist. No consoles. Their computer or bottom timer is usually wrist mounted. At that level its all about streamlining and avoiding anything that could cause an entanglement. Check the Hogartian and DIR forums.

Maybe look a little harder at the Vytec (or the cheaper non-AI Vyper) if you are really serious about the tech route. If you know now who your tech instructor will be later, maybe ask them for input.

[Stryker]

That makes more sense... so the SPG isnt necessarily a primary gauge in tech diving?? I understand it is very important, but you keep it clipped to the belt because the bottom timer/depth gauge/temp is most important? I just want to make sure I dont sell myself short with a computer... I am pretty sold on the Vyper being that the price is right and it performs all functions I feel I would need in an Air/nitrox computer....

[StSomewhere]

I'm sure I'm screwing this up b/c I'm not Hogarthian/DIR.

The SPG *is* most important but requires a hose to your SPG for the least possibility of failure. Those guys don't trust radio waves and electronics or batteries or... if they don't have to.

What you'd do is to unclip the SPG to check it and clip it off again until the next time you checked it. The thing to avoid for those environments is the danglies, anything that could snag something could kill you, so they avoid snag points at all cost. Consoles and loose octos and long BC inflators are all bad from that perspective.

[grazie42]

If you´re going to "go tech" (pretty much regardless of agency/instructor), as St Somewhere said, console is a pretty big no no. I wouldn´t rely on an AI for my safety, if you feel differently, then that is ultimately your decision to make and I whish you good luck with it. I have a Vyper and love it and for those deeper/longer dives you just put it in gauge mode and dive away, IMO, its a great comp and a lot of bang for your buck...

[Uncle Pug]

Why do you feel it would not be good for tech? I am looking to getting into cave and wreck diving, and want something I can grow into....If you are going technical then you will need a different approach than most recreational divers.

My SPG is clipped of on the left waist D-ring where it is out of the way.

I don't need to constantly stare at my spg (or bottom timer/depth gauge) I only need to check it periodically to make sure that things are the way they should be.

My SPG is a backup for my brain. I can call my pressure before even looking at the SPG. When I do look at the SPG it must agree with what my brain tells me or something is wrong: perhaps the left post rolled off or the isolator is closed or there is a leak that I haven't heard and my buddy hasn't noticed, or ?

My depth gauge/bottom timer is on my right wrist so that I can read it even when my left hand is busy with other things. But I only check it periodically as well and know what it will read before looking.

If you are going to be tech diving you probably won't be using a dive computer but rather planning your dives with decompression software and then using a bottom timer/depth gauge.

Personally I don't use a dive computer on any dive... I prefer to keep my poor old brain active and make the dive profile happen the way I want it to look when graphed out later. I do use a Suunto Stinger (in guage mode) for my bottom timer/depth gauge so that I can download the dive log later.


on ascent you need to pay attention to the depth for when you reach the safety stop depth.
TIP: You might find it easier to control your ascent if you use the stuff (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=13274&highlight=stuff) instead of watching a dive computer and trying to react to the information it displays. You know ~ hysteresis

[diverbrian]

In your case, you have received good advice. While I use a VyTec, I would easily recommend a Vyper. If you plan at looking at using a computer as a computer, you will be buying one that is overkill for you right now in any case (I am currently waiting for a VR-3 that I just ordered, LOL).

The Vyper is great for what you do and intend on doing. AI? Forget about it. It won't give you the pressure on your stage tanks when you eventually go that route.

I am not quite as good as UP at calling my tank pressure, but I am good enough to tell if something is up when I do occassionally check the gauge. In my case, I sometimes do work underwater (like freeing things up, helping to set lines, etc.) I do tend to use his method (and my ears) to judge ascent rates and come in pretty close to even Suunto's sensitive level alarms without having to stare at the computer.

If I were you, I would go with the Vyper. All of the people that I know that bought a Cobra initially and went into tech (including me), regret buying one. The Cobra is a sweet computer for most of our customers who will never consider tech diving though. So, I can't really complain about them.

[scubadobadoo]

Just a thought. Go even cheaper and get an aeris atmos two. Will be a nice computer to get you through your more recreational phase and then later will be a nice bottom timer too. Just another option that will cost alot less than buying a suunto AI computer.

[Daryl Morse]

If you're looking at a Vyper, then also check out the Apeks Quantum (aka, Tusa Hunter, Dive Rite Duo). The two computers are very similar in functionality, but I found the user interface on the Quantum to be a little friendlier. It also supports two gas mixes, which is a feature I plan to use. I read the user manuals and dove several times with both computers, as well as other types, before I made my decision to purchase the Quantum.

[StSomewhere]

The VyTec will do 3 gas switches and you can buy it without the AI unit.

[The Kraken]

Stryker,
Personally I dive an air intergrated computer (I like gizmos and gadgets). In my opinion, no, AI is not that important. With the abilities you've developed doing your cross checks, you've already gained the intuitive ability to understand what your various gauges are telling you, singly and in conjunction.

Keep in mind, too, that a dive computer, just like a VSI has a bit of lag in it so upon ascending you may end up "chasing the needle".

Some excellent suggestions here.

the K

[diverbrian]

The VyTec will do 3 gas switches and you can buy it without the AI unit.

Unfortunately, none of those mixes include Helium. I if you are using a Suunto Computer and plan to go to one that will have to go gauge mode in any case, the VyTec could safely be considered overkill once you start diving mix.

[Stryker]

Kraken,

Are you saying that the AI computers end up chasing the needle with the tank pressure? or the ascent rate indicator is like the VSI?

[The Kraken]

The ascent rate indicator.
You start to ascend, get a little fast, then a couple of seconds later the indicator spikes up so you slow down, etc . . .

Kind of like chasing airspeed. Just how much correction do you put in ?????

You know the drill.

Mine's an Oceanic and the psi is right on. I like the download aspects so I can fiddle around with the information.

Keep in mind, I always dive a plan and use the pooter as more of a support/analytical instrument with respect to the A/I feature.

[RP Diver]

I don't do DIR or Tech (and likely never will), I don't dive mixed gasses, so I don't have a clue what all those technicalities involve. I just dive recreationally at this point in my life, and I wouldn't have an AI computer for anything. IMO, it's an unnecessary redundancy and can be a liability. I pay good money to take dive trips to warm ( and sometimes remote) places, and I don't need the extra headache that can come with putting all my eggs in the same basket.

My wife found out the downside of AI this last week on Little Cayman, when her AI computer sprung a leak on the 3rd dive. Now she has no computer and no SPG. If I lose the computer, I can still dive the tables (with my old analog depth gage and trusty Casio 200m G-Shock) if another computer isn't available from the place I'm diving with. In this case, it just cost us an extra $150 for the week for her to use a rental reg and computer. But we have been places where she'd have been out of luck. She would have just had to stick close by me for the rest of the trip. Not a great solution, but we know that I use air faster than she does, and I always dive a conservative profile, so we could get by. She decided that she is definitely not going to buy another AI computer.

[StSomewhere]

Unfortunately, none of those mixes include Helium. I if you are using a Suunto Computer and plan to go to one that will have to go gauge mode in any case, the VyTec could safely be considered overkill once you start diving mix.
Yup. And the He mix computers start at, what, about a grand?

BTW, you can still download profiles using any of these computers in gauge mode, but then again you can also download profiles with a $120 Sensus Pro.

I guess its just as easy to buy rec gear that won't be appropriate for tech diving at some later point, as it is to buy tech gear now for where you think you'll be in the future even though you may never actually wind up there.

[cortez]

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is that if you are diving the computer's defined profile - a.k.a. diving the computer - most AI computers will now adjust you nitrogen loading for the workload of breathing. In other words, if you are breathing heavily you're no decompression times could be shortened or stop times increased.

[lamont]

...snippage...


ditto.

the only thing I'd add to what UP wrote is that I've been diving with other newbie divers with air integration and they tend to get lazy. they don't learn to clip and unclip on the left d-ring and they don't learn good on-the-fly gas management. having to unclip your SPG to figure out your tank pressure teaches you to clip and unclip, it also is such a pain in the *** when you're just learning that you start to figure out how to track and predict your pessure without looking so you don't have to do it as often. so AI may actually cost more money and set you behind for skills.

if you're planning on tech diving at some point all you need is a computer that is:

- wrist mounted
- nitrox
- single gas
- gauge mode
- no AI
- downloadable profiles (nice-to-have)

beyond that the features that you should be looking for are:

- easy to read underwater
- large numbers
- backlight
- easy to use underwater
- default screen gives all important info
- buttons should not need to be pushed during dive
- buttons should be easy to push with gloves on

the problems that i have with the vyper are that the main display:
- gives O2 clock -- unless you're on a liveaboard or are pushing ppO2s it shouldn't
matter -- particularly on-the-fly underwater -- i'd prefer that info on some other screen real
estate
- does not give a seconds tick -- that's the *major* downside of the vyper -- just buy a
waterproof 200m dive watch.
- does not give average depth -- *shrug* i can usually guess pretty close though.

[humanFish]

I have been considering dive computers for a few weeks now, and am down to 2 choices -- The Suunto Cobra and the Suunto Vyper.

They pretty much do the exact same thing (from what I get) with the exception of the air integration.... Now my question is, if I pay good attention to my SPG, will I get the same benefit with the Vyper (also saving $200) as with the Cobra?

I am really into the idea of the wrist mount computer, but am not ready to spend $800+ on a hoseless computer... Any objective input would be greatly appreciated...

I narrowed my computer search down to those same two models about a year ago. Actually, I was also looking at the Vytec but decided AI was not something I wanted. I chose the Vyper and never looked back. Wristmount is the way to go, IMHO. Instead of holding your console while ascending, for instance, your info is on your wrist. I use my left hand for my power inflator and watch my depth and time on my right wrist...

it's always easier to glance at your wrist than at your console. The Vyper is a solid and easy to use. Get a download kit and have fun.

BTW - Lamont and Uncle Pug are dead on regarding AI.

[diverbrian]

Yup. And the He mix computers start at, what, about a grand?

BTW, you can still download profiles using any of these computers in gauge mode, but then again you can also download profiles with a $120 Sensus Pro.

I guess its just as easy to buy rec gear that won't be appropriate for tech diving at some later point, as it is to buy tech gear now for where you think you'll be in the future even though you may never actually wind up there.

My point was that if you suspect that you will be diving mix later, my VyTec in gauge mode (as a back-up to my VR3 as I will have tables in my drysuit pocket) is the same as a Vyper in gauge mode and the Vyper will work for any nitrox mix that a recreational diver will plan on diving. I would never suggest buying a He computer first, LOL!

You are correct about the cost of He computers. My VR3 comes in this week and the price is something that I don't wish to think about. :11: