Bikini Atoll, deep air for everyone

[MikeFerrara]

Sometime I can't help but debate with some of you folks about what our exact max end should be. However, I don't think anyone should dive beyond their training and I agree that narcosis is bad and should not be taken lightly therefore He is good. I have customers who want to dive Bikini. I too would like to see some of those wrecks but... what I have read about the operation bothers me. They will take AOW certified divers to 170 on air and walk them through their deco. I have read dive mag pieces where the author stated he started remembering the dives by the end of the week. I have yet to read or hear anyone question these practices. This is a situation where the diver is totaly dependant on the DM and a perfect example of what I try to teach my student to never do. If I conducted tours like that I would be drummed out of every agency I deal with. Just wondering what all of you think.

[WreckWriter]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
I have yet to read or hear anyone question these practices. This is a situation where the diver is totaly dependant on the DM and a perfect example of what I try to teach my student to never do. If I conducted tours like that I would be drummed out of every agency I deal with. Just wondering what all of you think.

It's actually fairly common practice outside the US. The main reason it's not done here too is liability.

When I worked on a certain island in the Bahamas a bunch of years ago we used to take guests on 180' wall dives. It was called the "Nitro Express".

We had a place where there was a large, wide ledge at 180, bottom at 6000'.

The dive was done by 2 divemasters, one would wait at depth, hovering just off the ledge, the other would lead a group (very small groups only, no more than 4) over the wall. The deep divemaster would ensure that everyone landed on the ledge. After 3 minutes we would grab them and head up, two guests per DM. Safe? Nope, it wasn't. It was done because that's what guests wanted and because the liability laws in the Bahamas are considerably different than here.


Tom

[Okiecaver]

even if it means paying more and getting a slightly hypoxic mix. Safety is my primary reason. Ther first time I dove to the lower tunnel at roubidoux and could not only function but remember the dive, with no paranoia (my main symptom of being "narced") I was sold.

So much so that I learned to blend, and a buddy and I are setting up a mix & fill station at his business.

Sounds like you read the article in UK Diver-on-line. It was pretty scary.

When do you guys head for Florida? Perhaps when you get back the weather will have settled and we can hit Roubidoux.

Dive safe
Brock

[ericfine50]

I know its not Bikni, but I think you can now get Mix on Truk. I think it is a land based operation and if you have enough time, can also get it for live aboard trips to.

Eric

[MikeFerrara]

Okiecaver,
Florida trip is in the past. We dove Mine Lamotte the last two weekends. Looking to head back to Missouri the last weekend in may if not sooner. We can't wait to dive Roubidoux. Also if your interested we're diving the Wisconsin on the 11th. We ended up with a spot open. !00 to the deck, 130 to the bottom (outside) and 150 to the bottom inside. We'll be mixing it.

Mike

[daylight]

Mike,

I was hoping someone who has made the trip would share their experience. I was considering the trip and can only share the advice I received. My coments are definitly second-hand.

I understand that the flights into the island have rigid weight restrictions. The quarters are fairly spartan, but acceptable for hard-core divers. Food is average considering the transportation limitations.

Realistically, the main attraction is the Saratoga. The other wrecks were flipped over by the blasts. So, you're touring their keels and screws. It is still a location I would like to dive, but then I'm certifiable weird anyway.

I wouldn't imagine that it would be a big attraction for your shop. You would probably only be able to book very small groups due to interest and access. You have to bring spares in case of equipment failure because replacements probably aren't available.

I would expect that Truk is a more advantageous from your perspective. Less of an expedition dive - Liveaboards, varied dive sites, better access, sounds more like a vacation.

Just my .$.02

Larry

[scuberd]

My aunt and Uncle dove Bikini (all I got were t-shirts) but they loved it. The Dms were very knowledgable and babyed the group of about 6 (if I recall). they got a very good briefing, stuck to the dive plan, and had a great time. they were watched closely both at depth and from the surface. What I have heard, the operation ran smoothly and as safely as possible

[donacheson]

Originally posted by WreckWriter


When I worked on a certain island in the Bahamas a bunch of years ago we used to take guests on 180' wall dives. It was called the "Nitro Express".

Tom

According to my logbook, that dive is also known as "Over the Wall". I never did and still don't regard it as especially dangerous. However, for liability reasons, I wouldn't expect any dive operator in the U.S. to offer such a dive.

[voidware]

donacheson, I don't mean to flame, but how could you say a dive like that is safe? In my head, that's ridiculous. I could see taking students on a guided deco (possibly), but --really-- deep air and then deco. That's incredibly dangerous.

Now I am not trained in any sort of deco, deep air, or mix, so my opinion is just that.

brandon

[WreckWriter]

Originally posted by donacheson
that dive is also known as "Over the Wall"

Correct. How long ago were you there? Who were your divemasters (first names only please)?

Tom

[donacheson]

Originally posted by voidware
donacheson, I don't mean to flame, but how could you say a dive like that is safe? In my head, that's ridiculous. I could see taking students on a guided deco (possibly), but --really-- deep air and then deco. That's incredibly dangerous.

Now I am not trained in any sort of deco, deep air, or mix, so my opinion is just that.

brandon

If by safe you mean there's a guarantee every diver will always return unthreatened and uninjured, then it's not safe. You appear to be talking about students; I'm not.

Dives deeper than 130 feet are done with great regularity all over the world without remarkable death or injury rates. Wreck diving in North and South Carolina, Truk , Vanuatu, and many other places daily take many divers to 180 feet and deeper. To boot, many of these are accomplished with a single Al80. Riskier than a pool dive? Sure. Do divers occasionally get bent? You bet. Suicidal? I think not.

IMHO, it's up to each diver to assess both his or her readiness to handle a dive and the risks associated with it. Like many experienced divers, I've seen certified divers who weren't prepared and would put themselves and everyone around them at great risk in jumping into four feet of water.

Incidentally, the dive operation WreckWriter was referring to has an interesting policy - they don't want to see C-cards, but they do require all divers new to them to take an "entrance exam". It consists of gearing up, jumping into 4 or 5 feet of water, kneeling, removing both mask and regulator, holding both out at arms' length, then putting both back and clearing them. Pass the exam and you can dive with them; fail it and you're offered free lessons. WreckWriter is in a better position than I to tell you what fraction of certified divers fail the exam the first time. I know some, even after instruction, never succeed.

[voidware]

Clearly, it is one thing to take a trained, experienced diver, with doubles and preferrably accelerated mixes (for extra redundancy) and go to 180 feet salt water. Its clearly not suicide.

But with untrained, vacation divers there are not very good odds, especially for the divers I've seen (even the ones that could easily pass the entrance exam). Death could come in so many ways--inexperienced divers, narced out of their minds, below even TDI's definition of "extended range," on AL80's. Imagine the threat to the DMs.

I guess darwin's law must take its toll. Consider it a service to the gene pool.

You can count on one thing: you won't see mee much below 130 on air, especially on an AL80.

brandon

[padiscubapro]

Originally posted by ericfine50
I know its not Bikni, but I think you can now get Mix on Truk. I think it is a land based operation and if you have enough time, can also get it for live aboard trips to.

Eric

I was just there in March.. No one had mix.. If you want it you have to make arrangements yourself (shipped cargo from guam)well in advance.. Plan on spending at least $750 for a single K cylinder of He, and then you still have to arrange to get it shipped back to Guam..

[WreckWriter]

Originally posted by voidware
But with untrained, vacation divers there are not very good odds, especially for the divers I've seen (even the ones that could easily pass the entrance exam). Death could come in so many ways--inexperienced divers, narced out of their minds, below even TDI's definition of "extended range," on AL80's. Imagine the threat to the DMs.

I guess darwin's law must take its toll. Consider it a service to the gene pool.

You can count on one thing: you won't see mee much below 130 on air, especially on an AL80.

brandon

AL80s? Try steel 72s with J-valves. This was quite a few years ago. When I first heard the plan I was beyond shocked and thought it was almost certain to lose a few. I saw hundreds of people do it though with no problems. Advocate it? Hell no, just remember it.

Things were different then and things were different there.

Tom

[WreckWriter]

Originally posted by donacheson
WreckWriter is in a better position than I to tell you what fraction of certified divers fail the exam the first time.

As I recall it was about 10%. Worse rate than those who had taken the "resort course".

As I understand it things have changed over there in the last few years. Diving is now done in a way which fits standard practices much better. I haven't been there in 15 years or so so can't say for sure.

Tom

[Okiecaver]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
Okiecaver,
Florida trip is in the past. We dove Mine Lamotte the last two weekends. Looking to head back to Missouri the last weekend in may if not sooner. We can't wait to dive Roubidoux. Also if your interested we're diving the Wisconsin on the 11th. We ended up with a spot open. !00 to the deck, 130 to the bottom (outside) and 150 to the bottom inside. We'll be mixing it.

Mike

Oh. Duhhh.

Weekend of the 11th I'll be at Mine laMotte with trainees. This weekend I'll be busy doing some caving and survey training.

Wisconsin sounds great! I'll definitly take a raincheck!

Best rule of thumb for springs is to check the local weather around Ft Leonard Wood for Roubidoux and Poplar Bluff for Cannonball. You want at least 10 days with no appreciable rainfall to give the springs time to settle down. By the end of May they start to clear out and slow down again.

Keep in touch and let me know how the wreck diving goes!

Dive safe
Brock

[donacheson]

Originally posted by WreckWriter


Correct. How long ago were you there? Who were your divemasters (first names only please)?

Tom

Looks like I missed your post to me last time I was here. Sorry about that.

I was last there in February '99, but didn't do "Over the Wall" on that visit. I don't recall the names of the divemasters there - other than Moose and Peter, of course.

[WreckWriter]

Originally posted by donacheson
I was last there in February '99, but didn't do "Over the Wall" on that visit. I don't recall the names of the divemasters there - other than Moose and Peter, of course.

Moose was just a kid when I was there! I only met him once as he was away at school. Peter of course I know well. A fine individual if there ever was one.

When I was there it was myself, Brad and Jeff (not Dick's son Jeff)working for Peter. I was there around 1984 (?)

Tom

[donacheson]

Originally posted by WreckWriter


Moose was just a kid when I was there! I only met him once as he was away at school. Peter of course I know well. A fine individual if there ever was one.

When I was there it was myself, Brad and Jeff (not Dick's son Jeff)working for Peter. I was there around 1984 (?)

Tom

Moose married a handsome woman. During my last visit, Peter was busy lobbying for government action to create a marine preserve about 6 miles long along the wall. Brad was there during my first visit in in late 1993, but was handling the specialty dives at that time. When I went back in mid-1994, he had gotten engaged and moved on (or was about to move on, I can't recall).

BTW, Dick's Jeff suffered a great tragedy. His youngest, a daughter, fell off her tricycle and died of a brain hemmorage. Jeff and his wife later divorced, probably as a result of the loss. Very sad stuff.

I'll go back again, but I don't know when. I tried about a year ago, but they were full when I wanted to go.

[WreckWriter]

I'm very happy that Moose and Peter are doing well (is Peter Mayor of Fresh Creek yet?) and that Brad is still kicking around, even if not there. I also left due to engagement.

I am terribly sorry to hear about Jeff's daughter. I believe I heard somewhere that he and Patti had split up. I visit the website once in awhile to try to keep up with news. While I was there they accepted me into the family and treated me like I was theirs. Part of me will always be there with them. Someday I too will go back.

Tom

[ericfine50]

Try this link: http://www.deepweek.com/

Maybe they can help with getting gas on/off Truk.

Eric

[JamesK]

Originally posted by donacheson

Incidentally, the dive operation WreckWriter was referring to has an interesting policy - they don't want to see C-cards, but they do require all divers new to them to take an "entrance exam". It consists of gearing up, jumping into 4 or 5 feet of water, kneeling, removing both mask and regulator, holding both out at arms' length, then putting both back and clearing them

That's great. I could do that the first time I tried. Would that have made me qualified to deal with a 180' dive? Heck no. I don't see that as much of an exam at all. It will weed out only the divers who should not have been certified in the first place.

[donacheson]

Originally posted by Big James


That's great. I could do that the first time I tried. Would that have made me qualified to deal with a 180' dive? Heck no. I don't see that as much of an exam at all. It will weed out only the divers who should not have been certified in the first place.

You're trying to read something into my statement that isn't there. Passing the "entrance exam" is a pass only to get on the boat and dive the usual sites. "Over the Wall" or "Nitro Express" is by invitation only. FWIW, neither my daughter nor I thought the dive was a big deal - fun to do once or twice, that's all.

I don't know what criteria the dive staff uses to select people for that dive; maybe WreckWriter could shed some light on that.

[JamesK]

Oops. Sorry about that. I thought I had to be missing something.

[WreckWriter]

Originally posted by donacheson
I don't know what criteria the dive staff uses to select people for that dive; maybe WreckWriter could shed some light on that.

It was basically occasionally offered to long-term guests, repeat guests, etc. Only offered to folks who had done several dives with us and who the DMs agreed was up to it.

Tom

[Scuba Jim]

Everyone,

I know I am a little late coming in on this topic (I have only just joined Scuba board!), but I thought I would give you the benefit of my experience.

Firstly I will come clean and say I am in the dive travel business; I run a travel agency in the UK and we are the European agents for Bikini. I will give you an honesy opinion of the way things work and how safe it is.

Firstly, the dive operation has been running for some 7 years. in that time I believe they have only had one bends case, and this came about becuase the guy in question went jogging in the heat of the day every lunchtime and was secretly snacking on a large case of bag-in-box wine that he and his wife had brought over on the flight and were guzzling in their room at night! So he was not only hung over, he was dehydrated and made the situation worse by jogging in the heat of the day.

The dive diving runs like this:
Nitrox is uselss on any of the dives because they are too deep. You dive on air and have the choice of single Alis or twin steels with isolation manifolds. The single tanks have Y-valves so you can attach 2 regs.

The dive itself is done with this air supply and you return to the deco station to decompress from an 80% mix that is sent from the boat by whips. each person has their own reg to breath from and can stay there as long as they want.

The deco rig is set up with 3 levels - 30, 20 & 10ft. EVERY dive has a mandatory stop of 3, 5 & 10 minutes for each level respectively, regardless of whether you computer says otherwise. On some of the deeper dives a 5 monute stop at about 80ft is also done.

If you have a cmputer that allows you so switch mixes underwater (say a Nitek3) then you can do that, if not then you obvisouly set your computer to air if you have a Nitrox computer and dive the profile that the computer says you should dive. Your computer thinks tyou are decompressing on air, your body KNOWS you are decompressing on Nitrox. You are therefore building in a largemargin of safety.

As for the narks. Well they can happen at any time and at any depth. I have been narked at 110ft when the water was cold but viz was food, and also when the water was warm and the viz was mad. I did not feel narked in the sligthest at Bikini - for starters, you are bowled over by the size of the wrecks!

The combination of clear warm waters and zero current combine to make the narks much more unlikely. But it could still happen to you, it all depends! And it could happen to ou while you are kicking against a strong current in Vancouver sound on a chilly March morning! But you might still do that dive!

As for the wrecks, well Saratoga is an amazing dive, yes. But in my opinion the Nagato is more impressive (16" guns, 20ft props) and the Lamson is the best - you dive this ship and get to know why they were called destroyers!

Anyway, this thread may well be dead now, but that's my 2 pennies worth.

If you can afford it, do it.

Regards
Jim

[MikeFerrara]

From what I understand they will take AOW certified divers on these dives. Redundant equipment like H-valves are useless unless you are trained to use them. You must be practiced at manipulating your valves and know what to manipulate. Without that training you have just doubled the number of failure points. These divers are totally dependant on the guid to get them home from 170 ft. Should something happen and the dive plan gets blown or something happens to the guid or a diver is seperated they are not trained to think their way to the surface. They are not prepared to take resposibility for the dive. If you are not comfortable completing a dive alone than you have no business in the water. I don't care what the safety record is the logic in flawed. It's like cave tours for divers without any cave training. Can it be done? Yes. Should it be done? IMO NO. And I haven't even got to the subject of narcosis at 170 ft.

[Scuba Jim]

Hi Mike

I appreciate what you are saying, but the chances of a diver with no experience of H-valves turning up at Bikini with the relevant equipment to use H-valves is faiulry reomte, I think you will agree? Most poeple who can dive with twins & backplates have used the stuff before and know how to use it. Those who haven't used it before are unlikely to "borrow" the right gear to do so just for Bikini. The alternative is Y-valves on a single tank. If the o-ring goes on one of the regs you can switch to the other and, if you can reach it, turn the offending valve off or ask your buddy to do the honours.

The dives are all supervised by 2 divemasters. If the island is full (11 people max) the group is split into 2 so there are no more than 6 divers to each guide.

There are 1000s of divers out there who are not even "capable" of getting back to the surface from 70ft, let alone 170ft. Do they dive? Yes. Should they dive - in your opinion, no! But they do.

The bottom line is, you have the choice to go or not, as the case maybe. If one doesn't like the way something is done then obviously one doesn't do it!

regards
Jim

[Jonathan]

I went to Bikini in May. You can see my report here: Bikini Report (http://www.jonb.me.uk)

BTW I am TDI Deco and IANTD advanced nitrox certified.

They dive with twin 13l or Single 17l - I don't recall seeing H valves.

The DM's were superb - Tim and Mike.

Yes there was one AOW diver, he did not come with our group by booked separately. It was actually his second trip having been there in the first year of operation. He acknowledged his lack of training and was very responsible - passing on certain part of dives etc. The guy we had most issues with was a tech wannabe in all his brand new gear not really knowing how to confgure and not taking advice from the very experienced DM's, our trip leader (this guy was another tag-along) and the various intructors in our group.

If you are an AOW and are responsible - i.e. listen to the briefings, acknowledge your limitations and not be a know-it-all then it is possible and I believe safe to do this trip. If you don't Tim won't let you dive - simple.

No one dived without a mix gas computer or appropriate tables.

I think we also had a couple of DIR guys on the trip - but they were keeping very quiet about that - does that make them a stroke?

Jonathan

[dlarbale]

I know several AOW divers who are better divers than some DM's and Instructors. Whenever I dive with someone I don't know I assume that they're crap and baby sit them through everything - does it p&ss some people off, sure does, have I ever been caught out underwater - not yet!

Certificates, # of dives, max depth etc mean nothing, did you hear that NOTHING. Someone who's an OW diver with 10 dives in ripping current will deal with it better than a Dive Master with 100 dives in no current - period, trust no-one and definately don't trust certification levels.

Dave.

[Scuba Jim]

When I was there last August there was a guy from Florida whos qualifications would, according to some, have precluded him for diving. But he did fine, though he was not a grewat swimmer - more of a pedaller. But he had a great time, was concientious (sp?)and sensible.

As Dave says, there are lots of divers with only a few dives under their belt who are considerably better than those with 100s. I dived in a certain place 18 months ago with someone who was an instructor, and one dive we did together was particulalry enjoyable for them because it was their 100th. There is no way in a million years you would have thought they were an instructor looking at the way they dived.

Jonathan - were you one of Simon Pridmore's group from Guam? Simon was on Bikini the week before I was last August. Had the guy who, when we flew in told us all about the wonderful different types of crabs there were on Bikini. And we were wondering what on earth he was on about - flying to the middle of nowhere to see the world's best wrecks and going on about crabs. It transpired he did not dive (can't remember the reason - cold feet, me thinks!).

Regards
Jim

[Jonathan]

Yeah I was with Simon's group this year - so as you can imagine if he suggest's something like don't inflate both bladders on your nice new shiney OMS wing the person might take his advice.....

I think the person you're referring to did go to dive, only problem was that he ruptured his ear drum or some such on his first dive - ouch! All that money and then do that!

I'll be off to see Simon next year to do my trimix course.

Cheers
Jonathan

[AquaTec]

what is the story about doing penetrations on the wreck there.

I heard that you needed to be full cave certified to penetrate the saratoga

anybody doing good penetration dives on these wrecks.

how would you compare it to Truk

[Jonathan]

I think it all depends on the group - we had a very mised group some cave certified, some padi wreck qualified and others with none.

Threre was no "ferretting" our week - the cavers went a bit deeper whilst the padi ones followed a permanent line, not really penetration.

I got the feeling if you all turn up cave divers with a good bit of experience then Tim may let you run a bit after he has checked you out.

Can't compare to Truk - yet!

Jonathan

[DiverDave]

Following link gives the deep dives offered in the Bahamas

http://www.smallhope.com/CTSD/CTSD.html

I enquired about their facilities about 2 years ago. Mix was not available and the nearest chamber was on another island. Suffice to say I went elsewhere.