pre '88 al80 hydro in Ohio

[flashover604]

Hi all... I was wondering if any of you know of a LDS in Ohio that is still inspecting and hydroing the pre '88 luxfer al80's. I've got one that I don't want to turn into a big paper weight, and the shops in Columbus won't hydro it anymore. (However they WILL sell me a brand spankin' new one for $189.) Nice of 'em... Thanks in advance...

[jbd]

Hi all... I was wondering if any of you know of a LDS in Ohio that is still inspecting and hydroing the pre '88 luxfer al80's. I've got one that I don't want to turn into a big paper weight, and the shops in Columbus won't hydro it anymore. (However they WILL sell me a brand spankin' new one for $189.) Nice of 'em... Thanks in advance...
You may need to track down a hydro facility and deal with them directly instead of going through a LDS. The hydro facility will do a visual and the hydro. If the tank passes then you are set. If it fails either the visual or hydro then you will have a paperweight and the opprotunity to buy a new tank.

[flashover604]

Thanks for the reply. I guess this brings me to question two. Anyone know of a hydroing facility in or near ohio? This is one "opportunity" I could live without. I'm to the point now that the wifey's starting to notice how much my "hobby" is starting to cost. "I thought you had a tank already?" "Well, I do, it's just that..."

[herman]

Around here, the same place that does fire extingushers do the scuba tanks, they pickup and deliver them to the LDS. Check with your local fire department. They should know where to get fire extingushers done and where they get their air pack tanks hydroed. I wish shops would stop using this bogus argument to sell tanks.

[dbg40]

Same problem. I found a fire extinguisher company that did mine with no quistions, cheaper than the LDS, they both passed and the fill was less by $2.50 a tank. look in the phone book and see if there's one near you. Mine was within 6 miles of me and I never knew it.

[COVCI]

Hi all... I was wondering if any of you know of a LDS in Ohio that is still inspecting and hydroing the pre '88 luxfer al80's. I've got one that I don't want to turn into a big paper weight, and the shops in Columbus won't hydro it anymore. (However they WILL sell me a brand spankin' new one for $189.) Nice of 'em... Thanks in advance...

You can call us at 614-638-0432.

We provide hydrostatic retest, visual inspection, eddy current inspection, air/nitrox/trimix fills and more.

Thanks,
Chris
COVCI

[flashover604]

Thanks Chris, I'll be in touch quickly. Talk about people helping people. Thanks also for the fire extinguisher idea, I hadn't thought about them.

[DA Aquamaster]

Soda distributors, welding gas supply companies, and medical O2 supplies comprise the majority of hydro test business. So you can also check with the local coke or pepsi distributor or medical O2 company and ask where they send their tanks. Welding gas companies may not be as forthcoming as some are not big fans of customer owned tanks anyway and/or prefer to rent or sell new tanks to their customers.

[oxyhacker]

I've often suggested going directly to a hydro shop when one has a lot of tanks, or when a good dive shop is not handy, but recently I've begun to have some reservations about how wise this is with old bad alloy aluminum tanks.

The problem is, many hydro shop employees have inadequate or only informal training. While the hydro is supposed to include a visual, this is often just a quick peek inside to look for obvious problems rather than a full visual inspection to scuba standards. I was surprised last fall, when I took a couple old alu tanks to our local hydro shop, to find that they had never heard of the neck cracking problem, and were doing nothing to inspect for neck cracks!

This doesn't mean one shouldn't take 6351 tanks directly to a hydro shop, just that if one does, one should have clear understanding of whether the shop is aware of the problem, and whether they will be checking for it. If they aren't, one should be sure after they hydro to either inspect the tanks oneself, if one is qualified to do so, or take them to a good diveshop for a proper visual.

This is, I should make clear, mostly a problem with small hydro shops that do very little scuba business.

[MASS-Diver]

If it were me - I toss the tank and buy a newer for $100 - those 6351 are scary - with al tanks being so cheap I'd stop using it.

[wedivebc]

You may find the same problem with the LDS, if they refuse to hydro/vis them they may also refuse to fill them.

[flashover604]

Thanks for all the replies. I got a hold of Chris over at COVCI in Columbus. Great guy to do business with. Hopefully the tank's still good. If not, at least I KNOW. The LDS that refused the hydro is the same one that charged me to Vis Eddy my newer tank, a '97, that is made of the newer alloy that the Vis Eddy machines aren't calibrated for, four years ago. Maybe they didn't know. If you have a tank that you need done, give Chris a call. He posted on the first page. I know who'll do my fills from now on... Thank again everyone, this is a GREAT site..

[DA Aquamaster]

I've often suggested going directly to a hydro shop when one has a lot of tanks, or when a good dive shop is not handy, but recently I've begun to have some reservations about how wise this is with old bad alloy aluminum tanks.

The problem is, many hydro shop employees have inadequate or only informal training. While the hydro is supposed to include a visual, this is often just a quick peek inside to look for obvious problems rather than a full visual inspection to scuba standards. I was surprised last fall, when I took a couple old alu tanks to our local hydro shop, to find that they had never heard of the neck cracking problem, and were doing nothing to inspect for neck cracks!

This doesn't mean one shouldn't take 6351 tanks directly to a hydro shop, just that if one does, one should have clear understanding of whether the shop is aware of the problem, and whether they will be checking for it. If they aren't, one should be sure after they hydro to either inspect the tanks oneself, if one is qualified to do so, or take them to a good diveshop for a proper visual.

This is, I should make clear, mostly a problem with small hydro shops that do very little scuba business.6351 alloy was used on more than just scuba tanks. It was used in Luxfer medical O2 tanks, CO2 tanks and SCBA tanks so whether a hydro company does a lot of scuba tanks or not should not be an issue. If a hydro test facility is not aware of the potential for sustained load cracks, it is truly scarey.

[oxyhacker]

Scary indeed. Worse yet, as I was explaining to him about neck cracks, I didn't really feel he was listening very hard, or going to do anything differently as a result.
This shop, to judge by what I see there, does almost nothing but fire extinguishers, 1800 to 2400 steels, so maybe that's their excuse - I think the kid actually made some comment after doing the 80's that he'd hadn't known the machine would go that high!

But the lesson to be learned is that there are some little hydroshops out there that have been operating by rote for years and years, and making no effort to keep up with the times, so that if you are going to deal directly with a hydro shop, you really got to know what questions to ask.



If a hydro test facility is not aware of the potential for sustained load cracks, it is truly scarey.

[TxWingnut]

Interesting post, I just had 2 6351 tanks, hydro, eddy current tested and vized by a shop when the local LDS would not even touch them. I also learned that even if I had current stickers and testing they still will not fill them because they considered them recalled. Just food for thought.

[Tom Winters]

TXWingnut - I gotta tell you what those tanks look like from the perspective of the guy filling them. Yes they passed hydro, eddy current and viz - and cosmetically, they may be even be beautiful, but it's still a 6351-alloy tank.
Although your particular tanks might be good for another 10,000 cycles, in the back of anyone's mind who is filling those things to 3000spi are the images of exploded aluminums in shop accidents. What always spooked me was the fact that none of the few survivors ever seemed to have legs after that.
Now I'm not saying this is fair or rational, but Luxfer did offer to buy back all those tanks and they're not in business to give money away.
In Dade county down here, shops won't fill any older aluminum tanks. In Broward and Palm Beach counties, a lot of the guys I talk to won't pump a 6351. And if I was still running a dive shop, I wouldn't pump them either.
They're old, they had their life, Luxfer had the buyback deal for a pretty long time, and you want new tanks anyway.

[babar]

I was under the impression that AL tanks only had a lifespan of 15 years, and wouldn't be serviced beyond that. Is that wrong? Or is that lifespan just kind of stated as average?

Babar

[oxyhacker]

It's composites and certain oddball aviation steels that are limited to 15 years, though some newer composites are supposed to be good for longer. Alu tanks can be used as long as they continue to pass the required testing.

You will hear a lot of numbers casually thrown about, for how long alu tanks might or should last, but there's no calender limit in the CFRs (federal regs that govern such things).

[Desa]

I was under the impression that AL tanks only had a lifespan of 15 years, and wouldn't be serviced beyond that. Is that wrong? Or is that lifespan just kind of stated as average?

Babar

Two of my alum-80' tanks I purchased new in 1979. They just passed Hydro again. Due to their age, most shops will only fill them to 2500-2750 psi. Which is fine. I usually use them for dives where I would not miss the 500psi anyway. Like most things, how long they last is relative to the care they recieve during their life.

[TxWingnut]

Tom, Thanks for the input. When I picked up the tanks from my brother who stopped diving for medical reasons 12 years ago he gave me the tanks that had only been in the water 3 times and only had 4 fills on them. I understand that at one time some tanks did rupture, but I was looking at the DOT safety sheet and it was not a recall only a safety notice, the sheet also only mentioned 12 issues with that series of tanks with over 100,000 made.

Thanks,
Bruce

[jbd]

Tom, Thanks for the input. When I picked up the tanks from my brother who stopped diving for medical reasons 12 years ago he gave me the tanks that had only been in the water 3 times and only had 4 fills on them. I understand that at one time some tanks did rupture, but I was looking at the DOT safety sheet and it was not a recall only a safety notice, the sheet also only mentioned 12 issues with that series of tanks with over 100,000 made.

Thanks,
Bruce
As you noted, there was no recall. Apparently there were close to 25 million cylinders(not all were scuba cylinders) made from the 6351 alloy. As I understand it, there have been 19 explosive failures(worldwide) of tanks made from this alloy. I have seen one that cracked while it was being filled. Others have been found with cracks beginning and pulled from service. This is the point in having the tanks properly inspected at the proper intervals. If the tanks are properly inspected and found to be without defect then they are "safe" to use.

[Tom Winters]

jbd - you're absolutely right about the 6351 cyclinders being safe to pump as long as they pass all the tests. That said, more and more shops are flat-out refusing to pump them - even tanks they know. I wouldn't pump them, and every guy I ran across with those tanks either turned them in for the $50 bounty or retired them.
Let's see here here...12 issues out of 100,000. That's 24 flying legs. I kinda can't get past those 12 failures to see the light of the 99,988 good guy tanks - I stood in the fill whip area for too many years.
Sorry I focus on the leg thing so much - it always really creeped me out reading the fire department and insurance reports of tank failures. Sometimes they couldn't even find them in the aftermath of the explosion.

[TxWingnut]

Tom & JBD

I respect your opinions on this matter and thanks for the input.

Bruce

[roakey]

Let's see here here...12 issues out of 100,000. That's 24 flying legs. I kinda can't get past those 12 failures to see the light of the 99,988 good guy tanks - I stood in the fill whip area for too many years.
I take it you never get in a car -- that 12 out of 100,000 is a drop in the bucket when compared to the accidents or deaths per 100,000 cars.

But don't let logic muddle your phobia.

The real problem is sloppy inspections. The vast majority of dive shops have folks who have never taken an inspection class inspecting cylinders, and this is what you get -- kabooms. The dive shop solution? Punish the customer for the dive shop's incompetence by not filling their perfectly good cylinders.

Roak

[jbd]

jbd - you're absolutely right about the 6351 cyclinders being safe to pump as long as they pass all the tests. That said, more and more shops are flat-out refusing to pump them - even tanks they know. I wouldn't pump them, and every guy I ran across with those tanks either turned them in for the $50 bounty or retired them.
Let's see here here...12 issues out of 100,000. That's 24 flying legs. I kinda can't get past those 12 failures to see the light of the 99,988 good guy tanks - I stood in the fill whip area for too many years.
Sorry I focus on the leg thing so much - it always really creeped me out reading the fire department and insurance reports of tank failures. Sometimes they couldn't even find them in the aftermath of the explosion.
I know when I first learned of the problems with the 6351 alloy I was nervous about being around one when it was being filled. Now with a bit more knowledge and understanding of what the problem is, it doesn't bother me quite so much if the owner of the tank is diligent about the testing. Although they are still out there, I think that many of the scuba tanks have been turned in on that buy back program that Luxfer had. Of the ones still in use, I think that they will be taken out of service as soon as any problems are noted upon inspection and testing, with diligent inspection tending to error on the side of caution.

Where have you seen the incident reports? I have not seen anything specific but would be interested if you can point me in the right direction.

[jbd]

I take it you never get in a car -- that 12 out of 100,000 is a drop in the bucket when compared to the accidents or deaths per 100,000 cars.

But don't let logic muddle your conclusion.

Roak
The statistics are even smaller when you consider 19 incidents worldwide out of nearly 25 million cylinders total from the 6351 alloy. Not to infer that even one incident is good but everything in life involves risk as you are indicating.

[roakey]

The statistics are even smaller when you consider 19 incidents worldwide out of nearly 25 million cylinders total from the 6351 alloy. Not to infer that even one incident is good but everything in life involves risk as you are indicating.
Add the number of fills for those 25 million cylinders and you're probably up to a 19 in a billion probability. If I was worried about that, I'd be out buying lotto tickets.

Roak