Argon Question

[MASS-Diver]

On the advice of board members I have decided that instead of carrying an argon bottle, my dive buddies and I will just have a large tank on the site and we will each pre-purge with this argon filled tank before the dive, I have been told this is very effective.

My question is that I would I like to save a little cash, can I use my al80 and my sequest 1st stage for this argon set-up (which will never go in the water). I know ideally I would have an lp72 and maybe a different 1st stage, but, will this be ok? I will label the tank/1st stage so that no one tries to breath off either one.
Thanks

[ericfine50]

That would be fine. A pre-flush works great and you can really feel the difference. For wreck dives, a small 6 cu ft. bottle works great.

Eric

[MASS-Diver]

Thanks Eric, sounds good.

[ericfine50]

For rigging options - you can do a search here (I think it was under General Technical or General Equipment). One way is to mount ot the side of your doubles. Or, you can mount the bottle to your waist strap (like a cansiter light) or like this:

http://www.scubaboard.com/t7036/s.html

ERic

[DNAXdiver]

I've heard of flushing the suit as a way to make the small suit inflation bottle last longer, but in lieu of using an inflation bottle doesn't make a whole lot of sense - at 100' you will have only 25% argon in the suit, tops (and that only after multiple purges, wasteful) , hardly enough to make a difference while using a bottle and no surface flush you'd have 75%. So it just isn't economical or cost effective.

You say "ideally I'd use a steel 72" for transporting argon. Why? for lugging it around on the surface, either one will do fine. Do mark it, mark it and mark it again. amd not just ARGON but NON-BREATHABLE GAS. I like skull and crossbone poison stickers - overstated, but everyone understands.

[MASS-Diver]

Board member Unlce Pug reccommended this method to me and said it worker well, he says the ammount of air you put in during the dive in a very small ammount and does not dimenish the argon's effectivness.


Pug, you out there?

[DNAXdiver]

You don't have to appeal to higher authority on this one - you can figure it out yourself using your knowledge of basic dive physics.

If you have a drysuit filled so it is comfortable on the surface, how much gas will you have added by the time you reach 100 feet, to maintain the same level of inflation?


Originally posted by MASS-Diver
Board member Unlce Pug reccommended this method to me and said it worker well, he says the ammount of air you put in during the dive in a very small ammount and does not dimenish the argon's effectivness.


Pug, you out there?

[Uncle Pug]

We don't use that much gas in our suits on rec. (<100') dives and the EAN32 we use for back gas is sufficient for suit inflation.

However since we already have the argon purge tank(s) available we will use that if it is along. Since we are heavy at the beginning of the dive (full backgas) we can descend to 20' before having to add any extra gas to the suit... and we don't try to get back to the volume we had on the surface... just take the squeeze off - so what we add isn't that great of a diluent. At least the effect is worth it for us .

As for cost effective... nothing we do is cost effective anymore ;)

We do carry 6 cf argon suit inflation bottles when we have Helium in our back gas of course. And since we have them available we could take them on EAN32 dives as well... but we don't bother since the purging with argon works for us. (Actually when we dive doubles with EAN32 we do take the argon inflation bottles but that is just because the rig is set up that way.)

As far as a purge tank... and AL80 is just fine... I would suggest that you only have an inflator hose on the first stage and that the tank be well marked as ***ARGON -Do Not Breath*** and the regulator should stay on the tank as an added precaution. You can buy IANTD Argon stickers from your LDS.

[roguediver]

UP


My dive shop does not have Argon stickers do you know where I might be able to get some. thank you.




:sharky:

[WreckWriter]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug
I would suggest that you only have an inflator hose on the first stage and that the tank be well marked as ***ARGON -Do Not Breath*** and the regulator should stay on the tank as an added precaution. You can buy IANTD Argon stickers from your LDS.

As an addendum to Pug's excellent setup here I would add that you should always have a pressure relief valve in the reg's HP port also, both on your purging tank and on your carry tanks (on any reg which has no 2nd stage).

Tom

[ericfine50]

Global or use a sharpie and stencile them on the bottle yourself.

Eric

[Green_Manelishi]

other than "VX" my argon bottle has no markings at all. ;-)

there is NO danger of me breathing it and if some knucklehead
says "hey, lookey here .... a pony that i can use ... heh heh
but it aint mine ..."

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by roguediver
My dive shop does not have Argon stickers do you know where I might be able to get some. thank you.

My LDS didn't carry them either so I had them order some for me...
However there might be an online storefront that you could get them from... I just don't know of one off hand...

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by WreckWriter
pressure relief valve in the reg's HP port also, both on your purging tank and on your carry tanks (on any reg which has no 2nd stage).

I'm sure Tom means LP port for the OPRV and he is right... I should have added that to my post (and I suppose to my purge tank ;) )

We do have OPRVs on our suit bottle regs.

[WreckWriter]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug
I'm sure Tom means LP port for the OPRV

Yea, that's what I meant.

Tom

[reefraff]

GM said:

there is NO danger of me breathing it and if some knucklehead says "hey, lookey here .... a pony that i can use ... heh heh but it aint mine ..."

But if they die from breathing the gas, won't I be deprived of the pleasure of hunting them down and using the tank to bash their brains in???

More to the point...

I started out using a 13cf Ar tank, which was enough for a few dives, but I got tired of running out of gas on the third or fourth dive and I got tired of lugging it around underwater. Now I use an old AL80 (cheapest functional tank I could find) to transport gas in and to purge from. Most dives I take a 6cf tank underwater with me, but that may not be required. I probably wouldn't use backgas for dives involving cold water, extended run times or He.

Wearing the right underwear is more important to my warmth than gas - although I've noticed a non-linear consumption pattern related to the weight of the underwear I'm wearing.

[Green_Manelishi]

I wish no harm to my fellow *divers* .. knuckleheads or not :-)

the proper underwear is indeed key to warmth. If it was *gas*
in the suit that kept us warm we could blow our suits up like
the michelin man and wear nothing more than a bathing suit.

If you have only 10 or 15 percent He in your BG you can *get
away* with using it for suit inflation .. IF the water is not too
cold.

[DNAXdiver]

If you only have 10-15% He in your BG then you are just pretending to be using He, so you might as well do a half-assed flush of your suit with argon and pretend you are using it too.




Originally posted by Green_Manelishi


If you have only 10 or 15 percent He in your BG you can *get
away* with using it for suit inflation .. IF the water is not too
cold.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by DNAXdiver
If you only have 10-15% He in your BG then you are just pretending to be using He, so you might as well do a half-assed flush of your suit with argon and pretend you are using it too.

Not necessarliy... once you start diving mix you will find that there are times that rather than dump half a twin set of mix before filling with say EAN32 you just go ahead and top it... and you end up with a residual of He... which you ignore.

But I still don't want to pretend that 10-15% He doesn't cool me down...

I would rather pretend that the argon flush keeps me warm...

[DNAXdiver]

Good point. I routinely use argon on any dives when I am using doubles, so I haven't ever given the risidual He much thought, as long as the O2 is where I want it. But of course it is often there when you top up with air.

I was just venting some spleen, because lately I keep running into wannabe techies who are diving anemic mixes mostly because they don't understand mix deco and are diving them on air/nitrox computers, then boast about how they are big bad "trimix divers". What a buddy calls "ritualistic use". I was taught that if it's worth using He, then you should be using at least 30% or the advantages just ins't enough to bother with.


Originally posted by Uncle Pug

Not necessarliy... once you start diving mix you will find that there are times that rather than dump half a twin set of mix before filling with say EAN32 you just go ahead and top it... and you end up with a residual of He... which you ignore.

[Green_Manelishi]

If I was "pretending" to use either one I'd make the false claim
that my BG contained He and the "pony" contained Argon.

My point, obviously missed by you, thanks UP for *defending me*,
is that you can benefit by using a "pretend amount" of Helium
and if your BT is reasonable and the water not too cold you don't
*need* to carry argon.

Over 95% of my diving is done in salt water and I'd rather NOT
carry the argon if I don't NEED it ... otherwise it is one more
piece of equipment to clean.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Green_Manelishi
thanks UP for *defending me*,

Well I wasn't actually posting a defense Greenie - just trying to point out that there might be a reason why someone would have only 15% He in the back gas... that little amount of He would be incidental to the current dive and residual in origin...

I would have to agree with DNAXdiver that a low amount is not efficacious (if you don't talk like D.D. after a few breaths then there isn't enough in the mix to do any good)... and actually I would definitely be plugged in to the argon suit bottle... not just pre-purging... if I had residual He in the backgas.

BTW-
Over 99.9999999999999999% of my diving is in saltwater and I don't mind rinsing one more little bottle and reg.

[Green_Manelishi]

well, as the great (?) Mister Whelan (sp?) stated (and I paraphrase) ...

"Efficacy be damned ... It's results I am after !!!"

Therefore, I shall continue to use "pretend" amounts of He
if it suits the purpose and goal of the dive (and I shall NOT
carry a freaking Argon bottle !!!) and "real" amounts when
those serve the purpose and goal (and I shall then carry
the argon)

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Green_Manelishi
"Efficacy be damned ... It's results I am after !!!"

Therefore, I shall continue to use "pretend" amounts of He
if it suits the purpose and goal of the dive (and I shall NOT
carry a freaking Argon bottle !!!)
Placebos can be efficacious....
But they do not transcend the laws of physics nor physiology....

May you always feel warm even when hypothermic...
And may your narcosis continue to go undetected...

[IndyScott]

Sence i been using Argon i have been alot more warm and Happy..:D