opinions on DIR diving

[caverkevin]

There is a question burning in my brain. Why do some divers choose not to dive DIR? I am trying to understand why some people are resistant ideas, equipment configuration or any other parts. Please help me understand!!!! I have been diving the DIR for so long, it is impossible for me to think of a good reason not to dive DIR.

Kevin Jones

[TRUETEXAN]

Oh boy, here we go!!!

[pipedope]

Why do some people drink tea?
I just can't understand that. Don't they know know how much better coffee is?
I have been drinking coffee for years and it is the greatist thing.

I guess some people are unable or unwilling to open their minds enough to accept a different point of view.
:rolleyes:

[TexasMike]

Originally posted by pipedope
Why do some people drink tea?Also, why are some folks Christrian while others are Muslim, Budhist, or Jehova's Witnesses? Each seeks a similar (or same) goal, but has a different way of going about it.

I should go on record that I think that much of what DIR has to say about diving I like. But there are other parts that I'm not ready to adopt yet. And others I may never adopt. At this point in my diving career, I'm still figuring a whole bunch of it out. I got a whole lot to learn, and I recognize that I got a lot of evolving to do.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by caverkevin
Why do some divers choose not to dive DIR?

I have been diving the DIR for so long, it is impossible for me to think of a good reason not to dive DIR.

You have answered your own question Kevin... on several levels...

Not everyone cave dives as you do....
Not everyone knows DIR as you do....
Not everyone is as experienced as you....

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by pipedope
Why do some people drink tea?

Common' Michael... you know better than that...
Tea vs. Coffee?
:rolleyes:

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by TexasMike
Also, why are some folks Christrian while others are Muslim, Budhist, or Jehova's Witnesses?

Mike this may be a better analogy than tea vs. coffee but it still doesn't really get to the heart of the issue or even make a feeble attempt to answer Kevin's question with substance.

[pipedope]

Kevin asked a question with substance?
Where?
When?

All I saw looked like a far too obvious troll.

[roakey]

Tea or Coffee?

Yuck.

Hot Cocoa, NOW you're talking!

Roak

[pipedope]

Only with marshmellows will I drink hot cocoa.
Any other way is just not Drinking It Right DIR.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by pipedope
All I saw looked like a far too obvious troll.
Nah... I don't think so...

I think he is running in such a small circle that he doesn't see the obvious reasons *why*....

I could be wrong though and maybe he is trolling... he wouldn't be the first ;)

[Aviatrr]

DIR? I've never heard of this DIR thing........please don't tell me about it.. :D

If DIR is good for you, great.....it's not good for everybody......and different people may have different ideas of "Right".. I agree with some GUE philosophies, and I disagree with others.. What I can't stand is somebody telling me why "DIR" is the only "smart" way to dive..

Does this mean that my buddies that are "DIR" are NOT "DIR" while they dive with me?! :confused: :eek:

Mike

[Hal Iotis]

I sure appreciate all of the DIR rigging info I've gleaned from this board, especially since my Halcyon SS backplate and wings just showed up today! However, the DIR vs. the World discussion has gotten so tiresome...There are basically no new arguments in the posts above, just recycled (to the point of being threadbare) arguments from previous threads.

I'd like to read more trip reports and discussions of dive sites/boats/techniques and personal experiences. The maneating barnacle story is a Scubaboard classic, although it is somewhat overshadowed by the Warhammer! Not only is it entertaining, but I can actually learn something new. I'll post one myself just as soon as I go diving...

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Hal Iotis
However, the DIR vs. the World discussion has gotten so tiresome...There are basically no new arguments in the posts above, just recycled (to the point of being threadbare) arguments from previous threads.

Yeah, I agree....
It feels like round 15 and we are down to slow dancing....

[Hal Iotis]

So how was Canada? Apologies if I missed it in a different thread...

[sumguy]

The reason I have not adopted DIR...
As I understand it, DIR preaches minimalism, if that's the right word. Simplify everything, don't over-complicate things. But, they also say to use a long hose (I can't remember if it's 7' or 9'). I'm sure this reccommendation came from the need for divers who are sharing air to swim through a narrow cave single file. Makes sense. But, to say you need a hose that long on an open water rec dive, seems to be a contradiction. IMO, 4' to 5' is long enough for open water, especially in a kelp forest, where you don't want to get too far from your ooa buddy. Anything longer increases the risk of entanglement.
Also, DIR leaves no room for solo diving, pony bottles, and integrated lp inflator/2nd stages. I admit, I haven't read anything from GUE, and if I'm wrong about DIR's tenets, feel free to set me straight. If I was doing the type of diving the WKPP crowd is, I'm sure I would adopt more of the DIR philosophy. But, I don't think it's the best system for every type of diving, and I doubt if it was originally designed to be.
As always, just my own two pennies. Answering why I haven't adopted DIR.

[caverkevin]

Sumguy-thanks for your responce.

Everyone else-I know some pleople will choose not to, just because.... What I am looking for is some comments and reasons why not to go the dir way, I don't, maybe from people that don't dive DIR.

Kevin Jones

P.S. I don't really care for coffee or tea, I just dive!

[large_diver]

Kevin,

In some areas of the country, DIR is either non-existent or is an underground guerilla movement simply due to a lack of information.

Up here in Boston, there are no local DIR-friendly dive shops and no local DIR instruction. As a result, DIR diving is much more the exception than the rule. I first learned about it on-line, met a few local DIR divers and began my DIR "journey".

Also, most mainstream scuba publications don't discuss DIR in any detail....further restricting info.

My $0.02.

-Chris

[jbd]

I'm pretty much in line with sumguy. I'm not a cave diver or any other kind of overhead diver. Most of the diving I do is reasonably shallow and much of it is solo. The kind of gear configuration DIR has would be way "over engineered" for what I do.

If I was doing WKPP type of diving I would most certainly fall in step with them gear wise since they have figured these things out the hard way from what I can tell by reading. No need to re-invent the wheel all over again.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Hal Iotis
So how was Canada? Apologies if I missed it in a different thread...
Exeptional... best ever at a bargain price... and I only paid 1/2...
I put a trip report up over in trips:north america:$100 dive trip...
Or something close to that...

[MikeFerrara]

I guess I don't find this subject as tiering as some do so I'll comment again. It's hard to be Against something that works. Much of DIR (what I know of it) is, or should, be common sense. Some of it is the same or a varient of what cave divers have been doing for a long time. It seems much of my training and the training I provide my students tends to agree with DIR. I don't YET have any of the DIR/GUE texts but I am having a hard time finding many significant differences between the DIR rules and those of NACD or NSS-CDS. Yes, I know that those agencies don't insist on a Hogarthian config but they certainly encourage it and some instructors do insist. I think we are incredibly close to DIR but we don't call it DIR. Why? Because we are not GUE or WKPP. DIR is their word. I can not tell my students I am teaching them DIR. I certainly can't advertise anything as such, not even if I adopt all of it to absolute perfection. The only way I could would be to cross over to yet onother agency. So from a practical stanpoint I will continue to learn all I can where, when and from whom I can. I will do my best to pass that knowlege and the desire to obtain it on to my students. However I don't think I will ever refer to it as DIR. What would be fun is a discussion of substance. Why don't we talk about specific differences between the DIR philosophies and those of NACD?

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by caverkevin
Everyone else-I know some pleople will choose not to, just because.... What I am looking for is some comments and reasons why not to go the dir way, I don't, maybe from people that don't dive DIR.

Kevin... I wasn't paying attention when I stumbled into the ring last night...

I hadn't noticed the forum you posted in:
General Technical discussions...

That narrows things down nicely... and if you look at the answers of those who do not want to adopt DIR you will find that so far they are not technical divers and their reasoning reflects that.

Is your question really: Why wouldn't a technical diver adopt DIR?

[Divesherpa]

Sidemount!!

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Divesherpa
Sidemount!!
Shoot Sherp...
You are just too easy...
One cast and I had you... :D

[MikeFerrara]

Don't stop there. Can a sidemount diver be DIR? Should we leave all those little neat caves unexplored?

[Divesherpa]

No-mount!!
Solo!!
Pressure guage not mounted where it's convenient for viewing.
Bottles not always marked.
ETC...

[Fetch]

Originally posted by sumguy
The reason I have not adopted DIR...
As I understand it, DIR preaches minimalism, if that's the right word. Simplify everything, don't over-complicate things.


1) Reduce points of failure
2) Reduce task loading
3) Increase your diving skills

Pretty much everything DIR can be summed into those three points. It seems that most friction comes between DIR advocates, who think GUE/WKPP/GI are the best at determining what to do to maximize those 3 points, and DIR detractors who feel they or others might have insight that is equally valid.




But, they also say to use a long hose (I can't remember if it's 7' or 9'). I'm sure this reccommendation came from the need for divers who are sharing air to swim through a narrow cave single file. Makes sense. But, to say you need a hose that long on an open water rec dive, seems to be a contradiction. IMO, 4' to 5' is long enough for open water, especially in a kelp forest, where you don't want to get too far from your ooa buddy. Anything longer increases the risk of entanglement.


DIR is a 7' hose in caves, and a 5' hose in open water. And if you want to stay with your buddy, nothing prevents you from linking arms in an OOA situation, as PADI teaches.




Also, DIR leaves no room for solo diving, pony bottles, and integrated lp inflator/2nd stages. I admit, I haven't read anything from GUE, and if I'm wrong about DIR's tenets, feel free to set me straight. If I was doing the type of diving the WKPP crowd is, I'm sure I would adopt more of the DIR philosophy. But, I don't think it's the best system for every type of diving, and I doubt if it was originally designed to be.


You are correct, DIR does not leave room for any of those things.

Solo diving: proven dangerous, time and again.
Pony bottles: DIR specs doubles /w manifold
LP inf/2nd: This seems to be part of their reduction philosphy.



As always, just my own two pennies. Answering why I haven't adopted DIR.

Since that was the original point of the thread, the reason I haven't adopted DIR is that I'm STILL in the process of getting gear for a Hogarthian setup, and STILL trying to get enough (recommended) dives to take the DIR-F class ;)

Jeff

[Bob3]

The current DIR configuration is too rigid & confining, so myself & a couple other nasty lads are working up an alternate NEW configuration that utilizes surface air supply.
We've replaced all the cheap silver duct tape on our umbilicals with top of the line TycoŽ brand Nuclear Grade BLACK tape for starters.
(see: http://www.scubadiving.com/members/gearreviews.php?s=154 )

We've also switched over to a longer hose (300') because the standard 150 footers seemed to be a little too short.
The new paint on the hats is almost dry, too, but I must admit that I did fall off the wagon slightly & used some Midnight Blue instead of black...:eek:

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Bob3
TycoŽ brand Nuclear Grade BLACK tape.

Bob, this is just the ticket for all those Ranger owners who want to dive doubles!!!

Shoot... it would even help them diving singles ;)

[roakey]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug
Bob, this is just the ticket for all those Ranger owners who want to dive doubles!!!
Don't laugh. Before an ice dive a couple years ago I have a Halcyon buckle on an Argon strap explode on me because of the cold. I did the dive with one strap and a lot of duct tape!

Roak

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by roakey
Don't laugh.
I'm not laughing...
Works for a wrist seal in a pinch too...
But the Tyco stuff could even be used UW...

[Rick Murchison]

I've been searching for an apt mataphor for the true DIR afficianado for over a year now... and I think I have finally found one. Watching a rerun of Star Trek - The Next Generation a few nights ago it dawned on me that there on screen were the DIR bubbas.. in the form of the Borg!
They really do believe that there's no better way to be, indeed, that being any other way isn't worthy of existing in their universe (the water)... and they really, truly can't understand why anyone would prefer freedom over assimilation. After all, they're only doing it RIGHT!
Rick :) :) :)

[sumguy]

"Solo diving: proven dangerous, time and again. "

Buddy diving has proven dangerous, time and again, as has cave diving, wreck diving, dry suit diving, etc. Proper training and experience can reduce the risks of any type of diving, but you can never eliminate them.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison
I've been searching for an apt mataphor for the true DIR afficianado for over a year now... and I think I have finally found one.
Shoot Rick... that's older than Scuba Board...
And you will be assimilated.

[Uncle Pug]

:)

[pipedope]

Gee, I guess he is right, I am not a tech diver so my opinion must not count.
Ever wonder how much commercial diving is done DIR?

....

....

....

NONE!

We do it GTJD.

That is Get The JOB Done. We get the job done with the most appropriate equipment available. The best equipment is not the same from job to job. Sometimes is is a simple scuba rig. Sometimes it is nearly the same except with surface supplied air. Some jobs call for a full face mask with comms. Some call for a lightweight helmet some for heavy. Sometimes the prefered equipment is not available on site so we get the job done with what we have as long as it can be done safely. That is a judgement call made by the diver and dive supervisor on the job.

Can you tell me where and why you would want to use an all metal helmet over a fiberglass superlight? And yes, there are jobs where the Desco air hat and gates shell suit with dry gloves is definately doing it right.

The base reasons and ideas of DIR are great, as is the standard equipment configuration. The problem comes when some people want to take that and raise it to the level of some god like cult, no variations allowed.

OBTW I think even in tech divers there are still more people who don't know what "DIR" is, than ones who do.

[Uncle Pug]

:)

[Rooster1]

read my heading

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by pipedope
Gee, I guess he is right, I am not a tech diver so my opinion must not count.
Ever wonder how much commercial diving is done DIR?

NONE!

We do it GTJD.

Michael...
Do you think that a group of tech divers' opinions on how you should GTJD should figure into the decisions made by you and your dive supervisor. Of course not. Tech divers' opinions don't count for much in your circle do they? So why should you bring commercial diving into a discussion about DIR and expect to be taken seriously. But hey... seriously... you commercial guys excel at muddying the waters ;)

[pipedope]

How about the DIR numerical hand signals?
One through 5 are the same as 6 through 10 with only the direction of you hand changing. That is an obvious problem.

I happen to think the Navy numerical hand signals are much better, clearer and easier to use.

Hmmm what is the DIR signal for zero?
Not in the book. But they have a signal for ten. I always thought ten was signed as ONE ZERO.

Actually, the whole thing has become tiresome.

Why if someone was asking for a substantial technical discussion didn't they ask a technical question with substance?

[pipedope]

Hey, I better get the jet pump running so I can really muddy the water.
:D

[pipedope]

Here is one direct answer to the original question.

Maybe because there are NO DIR divers in the area to buddy with.

Also think about training and equipment.
How many major diver centers in the USA have shops that sell DIR equipment and have DIR instructors on staff with classes available month after month?

Hmmm, no equipment, shops, instructors or classes available locally and no buddies, I guess these things might push DIR down the list a bit.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by pipedope
Hey, I better get the jet pump running so I can really muddy the water.
:D
Shoot... from what I've seen you guys don't need a pump for that... just tromping across the bottom in your boots does the job! ;)

[pipedope]

Sometimes (like often) the job is 4' or more down in the mud. Then we get to jet the mud off to get to it.

Hey, the real fun is when you get to call to the surface for them to splash the standby diver with the jet nozzle just to get you out of the mud.
Ho Hummm, just another day at the (wet) office.
:D

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by pipedope
How about the DIR numerical hand signals?

And I even carry a knife to sharpen my pencil...

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by pipedope
Here is one direct answer to the original question.

Hmmm, no equipment, shops, instructors or classes available locally and no buddies, I guess these things might push DIR down the list a bit.
As this changes just think how DIR will grow!
Already it is spreading rapidly with only limited resources...
You will be assimilated. :D

[caverkevin]

First-thanks to all for taking the time to respond:)

A little back ground why I am asking these questions. In the last week alone, I have seen many safty issues that border from kinda acceptable to insanity. Examples, solo diving, ending dives <100psi at one end to using a biomarine CCR on a public safty dive team training dive at the other extreme. When I try to present DIR, as a broad based appoach to better and safer diving, people get mad and will not even discuss the topic.

Where I live in Michigan, there is a community that is willing to share the system, dive shops that sell the desired equipment and water. Just about everything that is needed to make some borg-like DIR converts:) Still people will not even be open to the topic. I am just trying to get a feeling for why it is like this.

I know human nature will keep some people from ever changing. I know I didn't want to change at first, because my system was working, so why change it. Glad I did! Thanks to everyone for the responces annd helping me.

KLJ

[CincyBengalsFan]

DIR is great for Cave Diving and extreme diving. They keep everything the same and uniformed. The fact they some of them want to transfer this over to recreational divers is crazy. They will get someone hurt one day. You can't train millions and millions of divers one way like PADI, NAUI, NASDS, SSI, PDI, SDI, YMCA and more have over the past 40+ yrs. and then all the sudden change your emergency protocal for a few hundred. As far as I'm concerned..They have some great knowledge for me and they have some ideas that I say "Good luck with your adventures" too.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by caverkevin
Still people will not even be open to the topic. I am just trying to get a feeling for why it is like this.
Well then Pete was right and this was a general scuba discussions question and not a technical diving question....

Pete come on back here and tell him what he needs to know...

I'm going to ask the other question in another thread....
Sometime.... later....

[large_diver]

Come on Pete, don't sell yourself short, you are tremendously offensive and entirely irelevant....;-)

Don't go changin'.......

-LD

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
DIR is great for Cave Diving and extreme diving. They keep everything the same and uniformed. The fact they some of them want to transfer this over to recreational divers is crazy.

Why?


They will get someone hurt one day. [/B]

How's that?


You can't train millions and millions of divers one way like PADI, NAUI, NASDS, SSI, PDI, SDI, YMCA and more have over the past 40+ yrs. and then all the sudden change your emergency protocal for a few hundred. ]

Why not? What if what they're teaching is wrong?

[maddiver]

Kevin-

You and I both know the answer to this one. We saw it day in and day out at Ginnie. WE had some 'questionable' gear configs and theories ourselves that got hammered out due to the conditions and the mentorship that the environment provided.

Also we saw cave and tech diving go mainstream and become the 'brass ring' that many divers focused on---whereas many new ow students wanted to become instructors the focus somewhat shifted to the 'tough guy' tech diver image. We also saw the fast track professionals who thought they were really smart and didn't need the experience, just a boat load of cash, a c-card and a goodyear blimp of an attitude. Who was that guy that sat behind a desk everyday from NY and thought he could outpace a guy who went cave diving five days a week to the henkle?

Oh yeah perfect example, infamous DIVER X, tylers student that bought the dpv and got the free annual pass deal. First dive scootered to henkle and almost died on the return....lucky Lamar was there......another 'pay to play' character.

So what you are dealing with is 3/4 attitude and a mix of that which you alluded to and a few other points. Ego threat (attitude) is the worst thing in technical diving. So in that regard my friend you are fighting an uphill battle. The worst are the PHD's who are 'insulted' learning from anyone else...they already know it all.

My suggestion is this. Get in the water with them. The difference will be clear and the advantages unarguable. You'll catch a lot of flack from the internet diver but then what do they know about diving so much your stuff never has a chance to dry out, before and after work each day...living eating and breathing cave and technical diving. Most of these jokers think Eagles Nest is a National Geo Bird Special. So keep with it be vigilant and never give up. There still are those of us out there that know the score.

Fellow tank monkie and retired cave police officer




Originally posted by caverkevin
First-thanks to all for taking the time to respond:)

I have seen many safty issues that border from kinda acceptable to insanity. Examples, solo diving, ending dives <100psi at one end to using a biomarine CCR on a public safty dive team training dive at the other extreme. When I try to present DIR, as a broad based appoach to better and safer diving, people get mad and will not even discuss the topic.
I know human nature will keep some people from ever changing. I know I didn't want to change at first, because my system was working, so why change it. Glad I did! Thanks to everyone for the responces annd helping me.

KLJ :) :jester: :jester:

[jeepster0000]

Let me take a stab at this without the extreme flamming.
1) I was trained through padi all the way up to rescue diver. Their teaching is very promotional toward BC. They like things done their way.
2) The information is not as available. To the diver that flys down to the Carribean and dives in 100' vis, they are happy for what works.
3) Since DIR is not taugh from the beginning, people are going to go with what they know
4) Recreational divers do not spend the time reading about deco theory, bubble formation and dci. They just like to dive in clear water and kick around.
5) Many divers, like myself, buy all the gear they need before or directly after their open water class. I was not happy to find after spending my savings on gear, that there is a better setup.
6) To go along with point 5, The money is also a problem. I am only a college student without the ability to get a job. Money is very tight for me. I do what little side work I can to earn some cash. I thougt I was doing great by saving up, and buying my bc and reg. I did the whole ebay thing too. I spent almost everything I had on dive gear, then I learned there is different way.
7) Even in the tech diving community, if you have a parnter with a ranger or other "hi tech" BC, then it eliminates you going to the DIR setup b/c of your partner.
8) The attitude is more is better when it comes to marketing. If a good salesman at a LDS gets ahold of you, you can walk out with a bunch of crap that you will never need. LDS promote the "tech bc" b/c it has 25 d rings on it, ajustable lumbar, integrated weights, trim weights, heavy nylon, and whatever gizmos they now sell. More crap sold = more money
9) Looks are a big deal, though pointless at that. I hear many divers when I try to explain my bp/wing setup, they just turn the other way b/c of how it looks. I may look uncomfortable, like nothing is there, it is too redundant, or whatever excuse I have heard.


These are just my opinions: I am only a rec diver right now, b/c I do not have the experience nor the training to be called a tech diver. I have been reading alot about dci, bubble formation, deep diving, bubble solution, gas mixing, and deco theory. I am very eager to learn anything that anydiver is willing to share. I will never belittle a diver for something that works for them. I have learned to keep an open mind. I used to dive the pseudo tech BC, but i have my Fred T plate on order, and a halcyon wing waiting to be mounted. I am taking classes on deep diving, gas blending, and general tech issues.

I have yet to go to the DIR setup b/c of the money issues right now. I am scraping by to pay for rent, and classes, so scuba comes when it can. I will be using the DIR setup soon, or at least most of it.

I do not mean to degrade the BC users and if I have I am sorry. I used the BC to BP as an example because that is what i have personal experience with. I do not have the 7' hose b/c it is not in my budget at the moment (thanks Fred Taggie). I know that a 7' hose and a BP does not make someone DIR, but rather the attitude and need to strive for perfection does along with gear config.

WHY DO PEOPLE NOT USE DIR? SAME AS WHY PEOPLE DO
People are entitled to their opinions, and each has their own expierences.....some like coffee, tea or hot cocoa. some are christians, muslims, or jewish, or some are for the federation while others are keen on assimilation.
TO EACH HIS OWN>>>WHETHER WRONG OR RIGHT!

[pipedope]

Hey UP,

Answering serious questions with one word answers does not indicate any interest in substantial technical discussions.

[o2diver]

I find DIR to limiting. I want to be able to dive with whom I want to and not with who an agency says I have to to be part of the cult. I do like most of their ideas and do use them. BUT I think that if everyone believed in the DIS i would make more sense.
(DIS Doing it Safely)

O2DIVER

[Spectre]

While there is plenty of good practices introduced with DIR, many that I'm sure I'll incorporate over time, it's the attitude that I take issue with. I prefer to be treated with respect and intellegence. To go with the Borg reference, it's a warrior vs. a salesmen.

My issue is the: "You will be assimilated, resistance is futile", vs.
"Hi, would you like to be assimiliated? Here's what we have to offer and if you don't like it, that's fine".

[WreckWriter]

Personally I think DIR is the best thing to come into diving is a long long time. While I am not completely DIR compliant as far as my diving practices, I do my best to follow the framework. I recently had the opportunity (need) to replace almost all of my equipment and after long study I decided the DIR configuration was superior so that's what I went with. I'm quite pleased with it.

As far as the training, I understand it's great but I personally have issues with a few of the GUE standards (I smoke a little so they say I'm not qualified to get in a pool which I think is BS). I think they are doing a great service for the most part.

Tom

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by pipedope
Hey UP,

Answering serious questions with one word answers does not indicate any interest in substantial technical discussions.
Hey Michael,
I checked back through the thread and I think you might be referring to *wetnotes*... correct?

I guess I'm not sufficeintly far enough along to have run into the official DIR hand signals...

What we rely on to communicate numbers (other than the basic stuff with fingers) is wetnotes. And I do carry a small knife so that I can sharpen my pencil...

I guess I don't see not having a large hand signal vocabulary as being a reason to reject DIR... actually we do most of our communicating with out light beams... and we can even *draw* numbers on the bottom with them...

(When I say we I mean Shane and I... not DIR in general)

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by funky__monks
"You will be assimilated, resistance is futile", vs.
"Hi, would you like to be assimiliated? Here's what we have to offer and if you don't like it, that's fine".
:D Classic Jeff :D

How about:

"Hi, would you like to be assimiliated? Here's what we have to offer and if you don't like it, that's fine...you will be assimilated, resistance is futile". ;)





{I hope you know I'm playing along with the joke when I say "you will be assimilated"}

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by jeepster0000
Let me take a stab at this without the extreme flamming.

Great post Jeep... cogent.

[MikeFerrara]

The number hand signals mentioned earlier are also in the NSS-CDS "Cave Diving Manual". I haven't ckecked but they are probably in the NACD "Hand signals for Cave Diving". I don't have that one. These are not unique DIR hand signals.

[CincyBengalsFan]

There is plenty of great responses (POGR) in this thread. To all who have the real open mind (TROM), my hats of to you (MHOTY).
Doing it right (DIR) is most definetly GREAT fo the Tech Diving community (GFTTDC). For those of you who just want to SCUBA DIVE this is TO much overkill (TMOK). Thankgoodness DIR is in BY FAR (BF) the minority. Millions....Sorry..Tens of millions of divers a yr. get certified to dive the West Pacific, Carribean, etc., etc.... They have ABSOLUTELY NO NEED (ANN) for all that equipment and nonsense. I speak with 19 yrs. experience and 6+ yrs. teaching. Cave diving too. THATS RIGHT. I do not Cave Dive at all anymore simply accidents can happen at any moment and they are increased in a cave. I have a family now that I wouldn't take that chance with of leaving them because I was in a cave. Doing it right truely means ..NO CAVE DIVING But they still do it.
A students panics at 20 ft. doing a skill for the instructor. The student spits out the reg and will not take any other REG. at all. What do you do. Should you give up your primary to the student, then take your eyes off the student so you can contort you neck to hopefully reach for your Octy which is strapped around your neck. Not to mention you now have TWO divers without a REG. WOW ..This is scarry. Then hopefully nothing will snag that strap you have placed your octy on around your neck. If it is to get snagged what then? Do you cut what ever is holding it? What if you cut a hose by accident? Then you go straight up right? OH yeah... Doing it Right...YOU CAN'T ALWAYS GO STRAIGHT UP BECAUSE...Your breathing mixxxxxxeeeedddd gases or in a cave,etc, etc, etc. If you are going to claim to do it right..THEN DO IT...OTHERWISE just hang it up. Good luck with your adventures. You guys have some great points and some I don't want anything to do with.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
Millions....Sorry..Tens of millions of divers a yr. get certified to dive the West Pacific, Carribean, etc., etc....
Really...
No wild exageration?
That many?
I had no idea that many got certified each year!
Are you telling the truth??
Wow!!
And that's just to dive the West Pacific, Carribean, ect. ect....
How many more get certified to dive cold water?
Truely astounding!!!
Where can I find statistics like this?

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
A students panics at 20 ft. doing a skill for the instructor. The student spits out the reg and will not take any other REG. at all. What do you do. Should you give up your primary to the student, then take your eyes off the student so you can contort you neck to hopefully reach for your Octy which is strapped around your neck. Not to mention you now have TWO divers without a REG. WOW ..This is scarry.

What's scary is that you have no clue what DIR is.

[roakey]

Originally posted by detroit diver
What's scary is that you have no clue what DIR is.
What's absolutely terrifying is that he's a dive shop owner and an instructor, and is spreading this misinformation from a position of authority.

And people wonder why there's so many complaints about bad dive shops. Here's yet another example.

Roak

[wannabe]

I will be the first to admit I don't know all the principles of DIR dive philosophy but, everything I have seen here from the DIR advocates has me running in the opposite direction.

The attitude that if you aren't DIR you are dead man walking and the DIR disciples' are the only ones suited to be in the water is a load.

It doesn't work for everyone, stop trying to convert the masses. DIR has become the annoying kids in white shirts and ties on bicycles going door to door of the dive world.

Accept the fact that some are willing to play a bit faster and looser with the rules than you. This is no different than the guy that drives 70 in a 60, does he hurt you no, does he accept more risk yes.

Live and let live.

[caverkevin]

You'll catch a lot of flack from the internet diver but then what do they know about diving so much your stuff never has a chance to dry out, before and after work each day...living eating and breathing cave and technical diving. Most of these jokers think Eagles Nest is a National Geo Bird Special.

My gear still stays in my car for after work diving. I just fill the doubles right in the back seat. Too bad I am diving Michigan crap and not quality Florida cave. Eagle's Nest??...isn't that a bar somewhere:)

Well maddiver everything you said is correct. I am also starting to pick up on a fear-factor. Fear of differences, learning, change, being uncomfortable, growing and maybe just diving in general. I am starting to think that this fear keeps people stuck in the mud. Stuck so bad they can't get out. Then when someone offers help, it is refused, because that person would not know how to survive being unstuck. This all goes hand-in-hand with being complacent. We both know that complacency KILLS!!!! So ego, fear, complacency and a good pair of dark glasses to keep from seeing the light. I am thinking that is the formula for people to shy away from DIR.

Kevin Jones

[wannabe]

Two More points:

1) There is never one right answer, there are always multiple wrong ones.

2) I will say this I am alway willing to learn new things, I am continually reading about new ways to do all sorts things (not just diving). DIR seems to say (again no expert) that everything else is wrong.. see statement 1.

[Divesherpa]

What's the deal with a chase boat for every buddy team. I haven't read this anywhere official and my dealings with DIR instructors/friends hasn't caught me with the where-with-all to ask. Is this really a DIR mandate?
It would be great, but I'm working class and have done a few without a chase boat, although not as happily as I would be with a chase boat.

[Bob3]

public safty dive team ... When I try to present DIR, as a broad based appoach to better and safer diving, people get mad and will not even discuss the topic.

Were you trying to talk DIR to PSDs? (Public Safety Divers)?
:confused:

[caverkevin]

at the lake

klj

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by maddiver
lucky Lamar was there......
But... but...Gasp... Lamar's not DIR!!!
Rick :)

[pipedope]

On the numerical hand signals. DIR devotees often wonder aloud why people don't instantly adopt something that is clearly superior as soon as they learn about it. The Navy hand signals are clearly superior, how long will it be before they are DIR?

The DIR system has a lot going for it, biggest thing being that it is a complete system. The fact that it is a complete system is also the biggest drawback as you really need to adopt the whole system or not, and that requires the participation of lots of other people including buddies, shops, dive boat operators etc..

As for getting stuck in the mud, that is a regular situation for me. I just call for the standby diver to bring down the jet nozzle and jet me out.:D

[Bob3]

There are big differences between PSDing (Public Safety Diving) and sport diving (including DIR style).
PSD work has much more in common with commercial diving and the gear requirements are likewise different.

Major differences include:

Buddy system: Your buddy is on the surface, he's called your tender. Having 2 divers in the water is a waste of manpower and can be a safety hazard in blackwater.

BC: A jacket style BC is more appropriate because a lot of time is spent on the surface.

FFMs: Full face masks are the norm because of contaminated water & the need for comms.

Long hose: No in water buddy, no need for extra hose to get fouled while crawling through tree branches, etc. Surface air is the exception when practical.

Tanks: Single tanks are normally used because of ease of handling. Deco diving is normally prohibited on scuba.

Pony/bailout: It's always nice to have a redundant air supply & it must be detachable in water.

The one item that PSDers seem to appreciate is the bungee on the second, so the next time you want to have a chat with the lads, use that as a starting point. Bungees are much nicer than scum balls, etc. & are much better at keeping the reg outta the mud.
The bungee shouldn't be zip tied to the mouthpiece to avoid stripping the whole mess off in case of a hard snag.

[landlocked]

Wow! is this emotional stuff or what! Are we all old enough to be dicussing this? Do your parents know? :eek:

But, seriously:


Originally posted by caverkevin
Why do some divers choose not to dive DIR?Kevin Jones In an open water environment, I think that the DIR hose configuration in inferior. No resistance. I seriously considered changing. After some careful thought, I came to the conclusion that the DIR hose configuration only becomes a better option in an overhead environment. The reverse engineering in taking it back to open water really doesn't work. Think about it. If you want to discuss specifics as to why, I'm up for it.

I hope that directly addresses the question.

[landlocked]

I forgot that I was in the technical section. In which case my open water argument is moot.

[detroit diver]

Landlocked,

Okay, I'm listening. Why?

Although this is the Tech section, we dive in open water. I'd like to know your reasoning.

[landlocked]

[i]Originally posted by detroit diver
Landlocked,

Okay, I'm listening. Why?

Although this is the Tech section, we dive in open water. I'd like to know your reasoning.

Background: There are some false arguments.

1) No agency teaches you to drag the octopus in the dirt. It is to be securly attached near the right hip.
2) Although I carry an octopus, I was taught that you always donate from the mouth. Then you reach for the octopus.
(That is probably just my instructor rather than the agency. SSI?)
3) A normal length octopus does not create an undue entaglement hazzard in open water. It only becomes such when you are in an overhead environment and you need to have a 7 foot hose. The logic behind the DIR config becomes very clear at that point.

Advantages:
1) The OOA person has an option. He can, as is expected, give an out of air signal and recieve the air straight from your mouth or, if it is more convient, simply reach over and help himself to the octopus. Options are always nice.
2) If the OOA person panics and you can't see them coming (it has happened) they are as likely to grab the octo from the hip as the primary from your mouth.
3) Consistency in cofigurations. Most rec. divers are so configured and accordingly know what to expect in your gear. (That sounds familiar.)

Disadvantages:
1) The oct is further from your mouth.

Conclusion: By a narrow margin, the octo has it. The DIR hose is obviously better in an overhead environment. If a kit is so rigged it would seem foolish to change everytime a tech diver did some open water diving. Similarly, it would seem illogical to me, to use a DIR hose config if your diving is strictly recreational.

There it is. Go ahead, beat me vigorously.

:whack:

[maddiver]

First you seem to be missing the point of keeping it simple and not changing things very much as you move from overhead to ow. As a diver you create muscle memory that is not easily overcome by thought especially when your brain is oxygen starved ( this applies to ow even if we never consider cave or tech). Having fluid reactions is key to survivial and performance under intense ow emergency conditions.

I take issue with Background#3 as it depends on what ow dive environ you are referring to. Sure the kitchen sink wouldn't be an entanglement hazzard on bluewater dive. Lets say we took a stratified random sample of divers from dive boats across the world (enought to make it statistically significant) and videoed the whole process. How many dangling regulators that have come loose unnoticed. How many accidental snags? how many subtile but importantly different equipment configurations (also a rebutal of your Advantages #3)


Options during emergencies have been noted to create additonal task loading and provide a vehicle for incorrect decision making. This should be so simple you do not have to think about it.

The long hose in your mouth is both more visible and is also on top of your back up. So for me in an emergency to go for your back up on a necklace I would have to go under and through the one in your mouth....not likely.

I used to use an air 2 as a DM and actually had to bring a guy up by donating my primary and using that crappy thing from 75 ft and I wish that a) I had had enough hose to give the guy a little extra slack like a couple of feet and I on that fit nicely in my mouth and didn't contort my head or fall out when he thrashed me not wanting to do a slight deco stop.

Through personal study of decompression theory, I do not believe in a emergency swimming ascent. This is partially due to the DIR integrated philosophy of a buddy team and standardized practices (without those then I can see the argument for esa's as you cannot count on a standard buddy reaction....if they are even around SOB (same ocean buddy)

My retort has nothing to do with 'beating you vigorously', but everything to do with a disagreement in principal. You are entitled to believe and dive as you wish.




Originally posted by landlocked



Background: There are some false arguments.

3) A normal length octopus does not create an undue entaglement hazzard in open water. It only becomes such when you are in an overhead environment and you need to have a 7 foot hose. The logic behind the DIR config becomes very clear at that point.

Advantages:
1) The OOA person has an option. He can, as is expected, give an out of air signal and recieve the air straight from your mouth or, if it is more convient, simply reach over and help himself to the octopus. Options are always nice.
2) If the OOA person panics and you can't see them coming (it has happened) they are as likely to grab the octo from the hip as the primary from your mouth.
3) Consistency in cofigurations. Most rec. divers are so configured and accordingly know what to expect in your gear. (That sounds familiar.)

Disadvantages:
1) The oct is further from your mouth.

Conclusion: By a narrow margin, the octo has it. The DIR hose is obviously better in an overhead environment. If a kit is so rigged it would seem foolish to change everytime a tech diver did some open water diving. Similarly, it would seem illogical to me, to use a DIR hose config if your diving is strictly recreational.

There it is. Go ahead, beat me vigorously.

:whack:

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by landlocked



Background: There are some false arguments.

1) No agency teaches you to drag the octopus in the dirt. It is to be securly attached near the right hip.
2) Although I carry an octopus, I was taught that you always donate from the mouth. Then you reach for the octopus.
(That is probably just my instructor rather than the agency. SSI?)
3) A normal length octopus does not create an undue entaglement hazzard in open water. It only becomes such when you are in an overhead environment and you need to have a 7 foot hose. The logic behind the DIR config becomes very clear at that point.

Advantages:
1) The OOA person has an option. He can, as is expected, give an out of air signal and recieve the air straight from your mouth or, if it is more convient, simply reach over and help himself to the octopus. Options are always nice.
2) If the OOA person panics and you can't see them coming (it has happened) they are as likely to grab the octo from the hip as the primary from your mouth.
3) Consistency in cofigurations. Most rec. divers are so configured and accordingly know what to expect in your gear. (That sounds familiar.)

Disadvantages:
1) The oct is further from your mouth.

Conclusion: By a narrow margin, the octo has it. The DIR hose is obviously better in an overhead environment. If a kit is so rigged it would seem foolish to change everytime a tech diver did some open water diving. Similarly, it would seem illogical to me, to use a DIR hose config if your diving is strictly recreational.

There it is. Go ahead, beat me vigorously.

:whack:

I'm not into S&M (well not on this board anyway!), so I'll do it gently!!

The first three points I won't argue with-you're absolutely correct.

But:

Advantages:

1. If the octo isn't working, he's got a problem. If he takes your working reg (after all, you're breathing from it), he knows it works. From all I've read, this is where most OOA divers go for-they simply know it's going to give them air.

2. Not from all the posts and articles I've read. They want something that works.

3. No arguement. That's one of the reasons DIR divers dive together. The problem with "everyone's equipment is the same" is just that it's not. Figure in the Air2 devices and the iteration thereof, and you've got a zillion different styles. Is the octo in the pocket? On the inflator? At the hip?

Disadvantages:

1. Yep, I agree!! (I know you're surprised!).

After all that, my biggest problem with the octo is the length. It's far too short to control an OOA situation effectively-WITHOUT ANY OPTIONS. With a long hose-5 ft, 7 ft, your choice (I use 7ft everywhere), you've got options. Bring a controllled diver in close, get a flailing out of control diver a little farther away. Whatever's right for the situation, you can control it with a long hose. You've got no choices with the standard octo setup. And that piece of crap AIR2 and its cousins is a total joke. I want to see someone control their bouyancy while breathing off that thing while donating their reg for air. And what happens when the s**t hits the fan and you've got a runaway inflator? You're screwed.

Sorry for that last rant. I find that piece of junk an insult to the industry and most people intelligence.

Anyway, that's how I see it, FWIW.

Dive safe,

Jack

[landlocked]

The oct goes on the hip or the right side of the BC. (Not in the pocket. Bad...) It's the yellow thing. Shouldn't be hard to find. And since you checked it before you got in the water, it should work?

Concensus: Air2, etc. is complicating an already bad situation.

So, if we agree that no matter which config, you donate from the mouth... then we have hose length giving you options vs. the oct giving options. (The standard config argument really seems moot.)

I suppose that whether a person is willing to go for the octo depends on how far they had to swim. If they are just behind or immediately to your right side, it's an option. Otherwise it is the same as with a DIR. hose setup. They get your attention and you donate the one that works. The standard octo is what... 3.5 maybe 4 feet? I suppose it gets close with the other hose; when you donate the one you were using. That of course goes along with locking arms; or SSI, taking hold of their shoulder strap; etc. Hmm.... If they are out of control and racing for the surface with you in tow, where do you want them?

A fun and worthwhile discussion. At least for me.

[landlocked]

Concensus: Air2, etc. is complicating an already bad situation.

The oct goes on the hip or the right side of the BC. (Not in the pocket. Bad...) It's the yellow thing. Shouldn't be hard to find. And if youu check it before you get in the water, it should work?

So, if we agree that no matter which config, you donate from the mouth... then we have hose length giving you options vs. the oct giving options. (The standard config argument really seems moot.)

I suppose that whether a person is willing to go for the octo depends on how far they had to swim. If they are just behind or immediately to your right side, it's an option. Otherwise it is the same as with a DIR. hose setup. They get your attention and you donate the one that works. The standard octo is what... 3.5 maybe 4 feet? I suppose it gets close with the other hose; when you donate the one you were using. That of course goes along with locking arms; or SSI, taking hold of their shoulder strap; etc. Hmm.... If they are out of control and racing for the surface with you in tow, where do you want them?

A fun and worthwhile discussion. At least for me.

[CincyBengalsFan]

You can find the statistics by calling PADI, NAUI, SSI, SDI, etc., etc. I spread the word that ALL BC's are generally good. YOU DON'T NEED A BACK INFLATED BC WITH 65 LBS. OF LIFT TO DIVE IN THE WEST PACIFIC OR CARRIBEAN. For saying this to students and people my dive shop is bad? Guess what guys...YOUR IN THE MINORITY. And as long as PADI, NAUI, SSI exists you will always be in the minority with those few opinions. Did you not see that I agree with DIR and it's TECH & Cave Diving training. I just simply DO NOT agree with it for the average diver....AGAIN, AVERAGE DIVER that likes warm water diving where it's clear. And for that matter...I disagree with Cave Diving with the only exception of exploration for the ecology and other sciences. Cave diving is not safe...For that matter SCUBA is not safe. Definition of safe...Free from injury, damage and danger. For those that are fired up about this. We'll...Please try to keep an open mind to those of us who just want to have a peaceful and enjoyable dive without a bunch of extra gear and gases.:(

[Friggincold]

I think the problem with DIR is the messenger. People dislike the in your face approach to getting a point across. I think it is very funny the way people get their shorts in a wad over DIR. It is a good system. Most people get in a pi**ing contest over equipment. DIR is more than that, it is buddy awareness(no solo stuff), it is skills that most people will never committ the time or energy to perfect.It is dive planning, gas management, accident management,problem management. It is that and more. Case in point, a group of 10 tech divers from VA Beach took the DIR fundamentals class they had a 90% failure rate(although you don't fail it just shows you where you need to improve). Couldn't do basic skills like bouyancy control and valve shutdowns. Pretty sad skill level for tech certified people who do dives over 200 ft.
People want quick and easy and "you did Good Johnny" they don't want to commit to excellence and be highly skilled(do recreational divers really need to be?) . A large majority of divers, including DM, AI and Instructors, lack the basic skill of Bouyancy Control. I refer back to the VA Beach class they had instructor who needed to improve in that group. DIR or not to be a good diver requires hours of practice(open water in full gear actual diving conditions) which most people won't do. They need to see something every dive.They are not content to just spend hours practicing skills. They get no immediate satisfaction from improving so they skimp by with minimal skills. I think it's a hoot that we have uncertified divers on this board giving equipment and skill recomendations. They have no actual open water experience but they still put their two cents in. It's like nobody wants to listen to the people who have a vast amount of experience, they want to do it their way. They won't listen and use the experience from some one who has gone thru what they are going thru. To be an excellent diver you need to committ time and energy to reaching the highest knowledge and skill level. Most people won't do it. Diving is to be fun and if they can dive a few times a year safely and have fun with minimal skills thats what they will do, no debates will change them. They're happy and thats all they want to be. I think DIR shows how high the skill level can be, if you want to excell they give you a way(not the only way). If you want to go diving once or twice a year for fun DIR would work very well, but is it really needed?(IMO current training practices could be improved) SO I guess you pick where you want to be. Committ the time and energy to what ever level you want. Diving should be fun...
.(climbing down from the soap box...) Thanks for reading Friggincold

[ckharlan66]

Friggincold,

I think you summed it up well. If I read your post correctly.

DIR is a great system. I am working toward it now but with my limited experience it will be awhile before I get there. But I don't believe that the DIR gear configuration is the only safe one. However, the philosophy of safety and planning I believe anyone could benefit from.

Chad

[guerosd]

Here's a thought on why people dont dive DIR.... cause DIR people scare em off!!

Sheez... I've been diving fer 18 yrs, recently found out what DIR was and thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. So what happens when I start asking the basic questions on various boards? I get flamed from so called DIR people for being an idiot (not in those direct words but I got the picture).

So I'm slowly makin the transition anyway (on my own mind you) to a DIR config because I believe the config works best for me. But if I was of lesser commitment to diving I'd have run FAST and FAR from anything to do with DIR 'people'.

Now before I get flamed for stereotyping DIR folks let me say that my local GUE-base org has been very helpful and supportive. So I realize that not all DIR folks are complete raving A**holes. But theres alot of you out there.

Get a clue... those guys are the reason more people get defensive and resistant when the DIR subject comes up. Let people have there own opinions, demonstrate why DIR works for YOU, and some will agree. That should be enough.

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Friggincold
If you want to go diving once or twice a year for fun DIR would work very well, but is it really needed?
Friggincold,
I almost hate to pick this nit from your superb post :)
But I must...
As you well know, I am no fan of the DIR bubbas and their "our way or the highway" mantra. However, if one chooses to dive strictly DIR (which is an excellent way for many diving scenarios), I would submit that you can't do it diving "once or twice a year." A commitment to DIR is a commitment to diving frequently, and to spending time "off-site" studying, practicing, refining technique.
This same commitment and dedication to excellence can be applied to lots of diving systems and scenarios outside DIR as well, and the DIR bubbas' denial of that is what is so irritating about them.
Bottom line, with routine equipment maintenance and a little preparation, one who dives once or twice a year can be a safe recreational diver doing dives within the limits of his/her training and experience - but they ain't DIR (or any other complete system) diving regardless of their equipment rig.
Rick :)

[pipedope]

Rick, excellent post.

I will give one example from the commercial world, while it doesn't relate exactly it does illustrate the devotion to the task that *may* be required in some areas.

Probably the most difficult underwater task (arguably) is welding wet. If you drop by any company that does wet welding most evenings and weekends you will find divers in the tank practicing welding and cutting.
Welding is a lot like riding a bicycle, you never forget but your skills do get less exact. The enormous costs of fixing a bad weld underwater magnifies the importance of doing it exactly right the first time.

Do divers need to dive everyday? No, it is probably not even desirable but diving weekly is and even better is if you can make a maximum of 3 or 4 days between dives, especially when learning or advancing skills.

Training teaches how to do things.
Practice develops the skills of actually doing them.

[maddiver]

I have one for you:

My GF wanted to get certified so I left her to her own devices to verify that it was something she really wanted to do. She did the research (intown albeit at every diveshop) and decided on an instructor that had a vast amount of expeience in teaching students and diving exotic locations. She put more effort into quizzing her instructor than most (note I was totally hands off at this point). She would ask me questions and I told her that once the class was over we could start the discussions. She took the class.

Her personal observations. That she was the only one to read the books and do the homework. Also that she was one of only two in the class of 10 that got the tables down. That they wouldn't let them use 'black' fins like I use. Nitrox is dangerous and explosive.

So I went to her final check out dives and when it was all over and the instructor had signed her temp card, class was in session. She got a 20 min intro to DIR and I had a bp, bat wing set up for her ready to go. Since the instructor encouraged each student to do another dive with someone right after class we did. She came out of the water and was mad at me. Yep mad that I didn't show her and let her use a BP/Harness and wing and have the back up bungieed arond her neck and the long hose (which to be fair came out of her belt loop once on our dive). She was more fluid in the water and the BC wasn't flopping around on her nor were there ay dangles etc. And the bat wing is 18 lbs of lift as she is a warm water diver.

The next trip was to Key Largo where after a stint of 4 a days she made some remark to the dm and captain about being so happy that her first dives after class were so good. They refused to believe it.

See I had let her try out each piece of gear in the pool and even rented a bc and reg setup from the shop she got certified from before the trip and let her compare a multitude of gear configs with her and let her make the choice before our trip. She tossed the colored sherwood fins for Scuba Pro jet fins and we went through taping of the straps (I took some fishing line and showed her how easy it was to get snagged and then how easy it was to solve the problem). She didn't like the look of the 'springy things' on my heels but straps are still DIR when its in the name of rule #6.

Some guy with an inspiration on a 30 ft reef dive called her GI Jane and she just looked at him and asked him what that thing was and why he needed it (it was so funny because it was such an innocent question and she has no idea about breathers, just in her developing DIR mindset she requires reasons for equipment use). Pretty funny when she beat him on bottom time and asked me if that's what old people had to dive when they still wanted to scuba dive.

I have no illusions when it comes to ow 'recreational' divers adopting and implementing DIR.


Originally posted by bengalsmgtsucks
Did you not see that I agree with DIR and it's TECH & Cave Diving training. I just simply DO NOT agree with it for the average diver....AGAIN, AVERAGE DIVER that likes warm water diving where it's clear. We'll...Please try to keep an open mind to those of us who just want to have a peaceful and enjoyable dive without a bunch of extra gear and gases.:(

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by maddiver
I have one for you:

Great post and smart... very smart way to handle the GFs certification.

[mannydib]

my main problem with DIR is that it seems like it basically equals diving a Hogarthian rig, doing Pyle stops, not relying on dive computers and having a fundametalist attitude

i dive a hog rig, do deep stops
i do use a computer for my "no-deco" diving but i plan my dives ahead of time. its true that all dives are deco dives.
for doing dives requiring scheduled deco stops (which i currently dont do) i would cut tables

i like alot of the DIR concepts but they arent DIR's
and i can do without the religious zeal
good ideas dont need pushy people pushing them

[MikeR]

I dive an inspiration rebreather. I have been diving rebreathers for about 10 years and have not had a tank on in all that time. Pretty much all my dive buddies subscribe to the DIR approach (except for not diving with CCR's obviously). My girl friend wanted to get certified and did through Padi. I pretty much stayed out of it, trying to not to take control of her and contradicting her instructor ect. We did the book work together, and everything went well. We rented gear for her dives and she got her OW ticket. The weekend after the class I decided to go do some nice shallow dives with her. I was horified at what I saw. Absoulutely no control, rototilling, unbelievable. No comprehension of trim and boyancy, bicycle kicking ect. With that said I called a couple of my DIR buddies to go to work on her, and they did. What an overhaul and in less time than the entire OW circuit as well. These guys were great and really gave her a good foundation to build on. As for DIR I've met wonderful people, and total jerks. All the bad things you hear seem to be associated with bad examples. You never hear a guy *****ing about DIR because some real nice guy came up and helped him out, its because some jerk ruined there day and they happened to be DIR. DIR has nothing to do with how a person acts...If there a jerk on the boat they would be a jerk anywhere. I'm pretty far from DIR and have experienced a little crap from guys because of the rebreathers. But 99% of the people diving DIR I have met have been wonderful. They are detail oriented, organized and thoughtul. Dont let a few idiots give you a mental picture that should not be there. Starting out I would recommend DIR-F to anyone, and I'm not DIR. What works works and alot of the other organizations are not getting it done. I know we all say its about the instructor, and it is. But its also about quality control and weeding out the unsuitable instructors. IMO it is the agencies responsibility to verify that the quality of graduates is up to par. I dont know how they can achieve this but it should be done.


30' reef dives on an inspiration you betcha, 300' dives on an inspiration absolutely. I dive the same rig every dive. Be it photographing puffers at 30', or jewfish at 300'. Same rig.

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

and many thousands of divers have been diving right for many decades.

I for one do not need a new group of divers or a group of divers with a new philosophy to tell me how to dive "right".

DIR has many good ideas..mostly borrowed and/evolved from divers who have been diving for decades...The idea that DIR divers have created a "new & safer" way to dive is offensive to many folks.

DIR types have not discovered the "Way & the Light" -- But many think they have!


:naner:

[IndigoBlue]

I cannot believe this old dead thread got resurrected again.

Fundamentally, DIR represented full redundancy of all critical gear:

1st stages

twin tanks

lights

knives

watches

gauges

etc

JJ wrote a book about shallow water DIR, and tried to re-define the concepts, but therein was his mistake, because the system has always been evolving, and still is.

I do not believe that equating JJ's DIR with supposedly all DIR is a correct conclusion. But if that is what you have been conditioned to believe, then that is all that you know.

[CincyBengalsFan]

LMAO

[JeffG]

IndigoBlue once bubbled...
I cannot believe this old dead thread got resurrected again.

Fundamentally, DIR represented full redundancy of all critical gear:

1st stages

twin tanks

lights

knives

watches

gauges

etc

JJ wrote a book about shallow water DIR, and tried to re-define the concepts, but therein was his mistake, because the system has always been evolving, and still is.

I do not believe that equating JJ's DIR with supposedly all DIR is a correct conclusion. But if that is what you have been conditioned to believe, then that is all that you know.
Huh?????

[km27]

as you are aware most people get into scuba diving as a sport, you know have fun with friends, so the rules that are out there for ow scuba diving are more than enough for people just to have fun see some fish and call it a day,but as in everything there are those who push the limits and thats way you have other levels of training, but to say it has to be done a certin way is the most stupid thing i've ever heard.

[nalfein]

Hey folks..

I'm not a technical diver, nor am I DIR trained. I dive on the east coast of Canada, as far as I know the only GUE instructor in Canada is in Ontario, if the training was available here, there is a very good chance that I would have taken a DIR/F course by now. The fact that the system is all encompassing is something I respect and find somewhat appealing, at the same time, I like to have options, and being able to design my own training path also appeals to me.
I'm sure most people would agree that DIR is a good system, one that is committed to excellence, and one that benefits the diving community as a whole. That being said, there are bound to be differences in the way people dive at all levels, just as in any other facet of life. I was on a course last week and we had an American P3 pilot as one of the instructors. This fellow was giving an example of differences between our two systems of incident management in the air and he outlined major fundamental differences in the handling of an emerency with an engine. One approach called for a complete shutdown, the other did not. These 2 aircraft are nearly identical, but still there are 2 very different techniques for handling of emergencies. There will always be differences in methodology, even at the highest levels of performance, in nearly all fields.
I respect DIR for what it is, regardless of whether or not the odd DIR trained diver thinks I'm a stroke or whatever. I've only encountered a few GUE divers, they were very skilled and very kind and helpful. Just my thoughts on the subject.... dive safe all....

[MikeFerrara]

IndigoBlue once bubbled...
I cannot believe this old dead thread got resurrected again.

Fundamentally, DIR represented full redundancy of all critical gear:

1st stages

twin tanks

lights

You can be very DIR with a single tank and a single reg.


knives

watches

gauges

etc

As far as I know they don't teach to use redundant gauges. Your buddy has those. The team diving aspect and the insistance on good skills (at all levels of diving) is the part you've missed/


JJ wrote a book about shallow water DIR, and tried to re-define the concepts, but therein was his mistake, because the system has always been evolving, and still is.

I do not believe that equating JJ's DIR with supposedly all DIR is a correct conclusion. But if that is what you have been conditioned to believe, then that is all that you know.

"JJ's DIR", as you put it, is the only DIR that there is. JJ and GI coined the term and they define the system.

[CincyBengalsFan]

nalfein once bubbled...

one that is committed to excellence, and one that benefits the diving community as a whole.

NO....Teaching a group of divers to dive differently and training them to handle emergencies differently from the majority of the recreation diving community does NOT benefit the diving community at all. It's going to catch up with them before long and someone will be hurt.

They need to stick with the Tech community where it is most benefiticial.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And how can anyone take DIR advice or Info. from a guy who claims that split fins are "snakepoison".

[nalfein]

[QUOTE]CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...
[B]

NO....Teaching a group of divers to dive differently and training them to handle emergencies differently from the majority of the recreation diving community does NOT benefit the diving community at all. It's going to catch up with them before long and someone will be hurt.


But don't many of the agencies deal differently with emergency situations? Who is right? If no one is exactly the same then how could we decide who is right, making everyone else wrong? Unless there were only one agency and standard, there couldn't be one way for all problems to be solved, and if there were one agency, people would splinter off anyway.
The only way to be sure is to pick your buddies with care, agree upon emergency actions, and dive within your plans and limits. I think DIR has tried to identify as many possible failure points as can be reasonably expected and removed as many causing/aggravating factors as they could. Then they have taught one standard to all of their people, a certain style of gear configuration, and tried to maintain a high level of diving proficiency. Maybe not so helpful to people who don't know the system ( me ) but it's looking out for themselves and their buddies, so it's somewhat safer.
Not everyone will be on the same page, ever, but the best you can do is try. I really can't see how training consciencious, skilled, and prepared divers doesn't help raise safety at least a little. I've seen lots of crappy divers from a few different training agencies who have no buoyancy control, poor situational awareness, and minimal concern for those around them. I've only been in the water with a few GUE divers, but they were highly skilled, I would have been surprised if they were unable to help each other or myself in an emergency. Their gear was streamlined and left no confusion or doubt as to function, I'm certain I could have worked with them with minimal learning curve.
I'm sure you're a very accomplished diver, I myself am still on the steep path up the slope. I respect your opinion even if I don't completely understand it, maybe I'll change my mind about the subject someday, but for now I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I'm not too sure about different agencies and how they handle emergencies, if their is in fact one standard except for GUE, then feel free to smack me down...:confused:
Dive safe all....

[MikeFerrara]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


NO....Teaching a group of divers to dive differently and training them to handle emergencies differently from the majority of the recreation diving community does NOT benefit the diving community at all. It's going to catch up with them before long and someone will be hurt.

They need to stick with the Tech community where it is most benefiticial.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And how can anyone take DIR advice or Info. from a guy who claims that split fins are "snakepoison".

In what way are they teaching divers to handle emergencies different?

I have audited one DIRF class and part of another and dived with a bunch of GUE grads of classes ranging from DIRF to cave 2 and tech 2. The main benefit I see is the consistant quality. They're not teaching divers to dive on their knees.

People are already getting hurt. Just in the last year there was one dead and several other hauled out in ambulances just from Gilboa alone. At least one was an AOW student who freaked on the deep dive. I personally know of several other close calls that didn't result in injury but that was luck. We often see rapid ascents after a free flow or some such thing. As far as I can tell every single one of these incedents, without exception would have been avoided if the diver possesed even the most basic skills.

regardless of whether or not you agree with everything GUE is doing they are actively addressing this nonsense by providing their students with good solid skills.

To suggest that they're the ones who are going to get some one hurt has to be one of the most rediculous things I've ever heard.

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

MikeFerrara said...

They're not teaching divers to dive on their knees.



Who is teaching divers to dive on their knees?:confused:

[MikeFerrara]

Capt Jim Wyatt once bubbled...


Who is teaching divers to dive on their knees?:confused:

Some one must be because most of the divers we run into in the quaries are sitting, standing or kneeling on the bottom or otherwise molesting it. The classes I see have divers doing all their skills on their knees and they seem to continue the technique.

You've never seen this...:confused:

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

MikeFerrara asked...
You've never seen this...:confused:

O yea..I did not understand what you meant. When I have entry level divers demonstrate certain skills in open water that they learned in confined water I asked them to kneel on the bottom.

But, I don't construe that as teaching divers to dive on their knees.

:bonk:

[BigJetDriver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

"JJ's DIR", as you put it, is the only DIR that there is. JJ and GI coined the term and they define the system.



Actually, Mike, no offense meant, but it seems that, according to all report, JJ and GI did NOT coin the term DIR. (Reference earlier posts archived on this Board.)

BJD

[MikeFerrara]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...


Actually, Mike, no offense meant, but it seems that, according to all report, JJ and GI did NOT coin the term DIR. (Reference earlier posts archived on this Board.)

BJD

I stand corrected. I've been told that the term was used earlier in a NAUI text, I think it was.

No offense taken. LOL

[cornfed]

IndigoBlue once bubbled...
I cannot believe this old dead thread got resurrected again.


I see you registered in November. Hang around for a few months and you'll get used to it.

[IndigoBlue]

MikeFerrara ...
You can be very DIR with a single tank and a single reg.
That is one of the modern myths of JJ's DIR. Originally, TWO OF EVERYTHING was the fundamental DIR philosophy. And this specifically meant 2 tanks, 2 regs, 2 etc. JJ has totally missed the boat on this issue. Had he instead said something to the effect that rather than wearing an 80 cu ft tank, divers should wear twin 40s, I would agree with him. But he did not.



MikeFerrara ...

As far as I know they don't teach to use redundant gauges. Your buddy has those. The team diving aspect and the insistance on good skills (at all levels of diving) is the part you've missed
This is another one of JJ's myths. Two watchs was the older standard. The idea is to be buddy independent in case you are in a cave or wreck, get separated from your buddy, AND have a failure. In modern terms, this would equate to two electronic depth/time gauges.



MikeFerrara ...

"JJ's DIR", as you put it, is the only DIR that there is. JJ and GI coined the term and they define the system.
I am glad BigJetDiver put that fallacy to rest as well. DIR has been around at least 30 years. A lot longer than JJ.

There are things I truly love about JJ's book. For example, I hope that donating the primary 2nd stage will become an industry-wide training standard. I also hope that jetfins or turtle fins will gain a resurgence, rather than the long freediving fins that are being pushed onto divers these days; in other words, shorter fins rather than longer ones. Above all else, he bravely states that not everyone is cut out to be certified as a scuba diver, and he is right. Current standards are dangerously low, all for the sake of revenue growth within the diving industry.

[JeffG]

IndigoBlue once bubbled...

modern DIR myths vs classic DIR

WTH?

[MikeR]

I'm not pro DIR or anti-DIR. Agree with alot and disagree with alot but I must admit that GUE trained as opposed to alot of other OW trained divers I've seen is a huge difference. Alot of guys are running people through OW so fast they develope no skills and I believe are a danger to themselves and others. I have seen Open Water go from an all encompassing scuba diving course to an underwater "breathing course". Seems alot of new guys I see can do little more than breath underwater. They are not comfortable, skilled or confident. It has really gotten bad the last couple years. Now I do know some PADI, NAUI instructors who are top notch and teach there students well. But as of late it seems there are 50 lame instructors to 1 good one. GUE seems to have gotten good quality control in place. While I dont agree with everything they promote, they are consistant and seem to produce the better skilled divers. I do believe you can get as good a training from a good instructor from any agency, but if your a new guy just getting wet how do you know who is good?That must be the agencies responsibility and many are dropping the ball.

[CincyBengalsFan]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


In what way are they teaching divers to handle emergencies different?


Uh....Donating the primay vs. donating the standard way by donating the octo or safe 2nd.

I'm sure there are more....But this has to be the dooozie.


Poor dead horse.....let's kick it one more time.

[cornfed]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...

Uh....Donating the primay vs. donating the standard way by donating the octo or safe 2nd.


In my NAUI class I was taught to donate my primary. We would either buddy breath (talk about non-standard) or switch to our backup (an AirII).



Poor dead horse.....let's kick it one more time.

All together now,
"Sometimes I feel like I'm beatin' a dead horse"

[MikeFerrara]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


Uh....Donating the primay vs. donating the standard way by donating the octo or safe 2nd.

I'm sure there are more....But this has to be the dooozie.


Poor dead horse.....let's kick it one more time.

I don't know how you can say that donating the primary is non-standard with so many recreational divers using Air 2 type devices.

If you put it that way then the standard way is to have a octo that dangles loose where no one could find it if they need it because I sure see a lot of divers and students diving that way. LOL

Teaching divers to be able to share air while maintaining buoyancy control and position is where they're deviating from standard (doing it on their knees) but I'd say that's a good thing. Of course GUE doesn't own the patent on that but judjing by how few teach it you'd think they did.

[IndigoBlue]

caverkevin once bubbled...
There is a question burning in my brain. Why do some divers choose not to dive DIR? I am trying to understand why some people are resistant ideas, equipment configuration or any other parts. Please help me understand!!!! I have been diving the DIR for so long, it is impossible for me to think of a good reason not to dive DIR.

Kevin Jones

At 19 months, and still going, this troll has put even the Eveready Bunny to shame.

Do You Have The Bunny Inside?

[MikeFerrara]

If you don't have anything better to do, and it seems like some of us don't, what's wrong with beating a dead horse?

[Scott M]

Is there any way to link the LP vs LDs threads to this one? :boom:

[MikeFerrara]

Scott M once bubbled...
Is there any way to link the LP vs LDs threads to this one? :boom:

As a matter of fact there is but it might get me moderated:D

[Scott M]

LOL :D

[roakey]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


NO....Teaching a group of divers to dive differently and training them to handle emergencies differently from the majority of the recreation diving community does NOT benefit the diving community at all. It's going to catch up with them before long and someone will be hurt.

They need to stick with the Tech community where it is most benefiticial.
You betcha! Personally they should have left seat belts in the race cars. There's NO PLACE for seatbelts in recreational vehicles. And after all, when some idiot proposed that they be put in normal cars, most emergency personel didn't know how to deal with some one trapped in a car in that technical gear!

Imagine how many lives would have been saved if we didn't take that techical stuff from the race cars and moved it into normal vehicles!

Oh wait, that reasoning is completely full of it, isn't it?

At least *I* can see that.

Roak

[boomx5]

IndigoBlue once bubbled...

That is one of the modern myths of JJ's DIR. Originally, TWO OF EVERYTHING was the fundamental DIR philosophy. And this specifically meant 2 tanks, 2 regs, 2 etc. JJ has totally missed the boat on this issue. Had he instead said something to the effect that rather than wearing an 80 cu ft tank, divers should wear twin 40s, I would agree with him. But he did not.



This is another one of JJ's myths. Two watchs was the older standard. The idea is to be buddy independent in case you are in a cave or wreck, get separated from your buddy, AND have a failure. In modern terms, this would equate to two electronic depth/time gauges.



I am glad BigJetDiver put that fallacy to rest as well. DIR has been around at least 30 years. A lot longer than JJ.

There are things I truly love about JJ's book. For example, I hope that donating the primary 2nd stage will become an industry-wide training standard. I also hope that jetfins or turtle fins will gain a resurgence, rather than the long freediving fins that are being pushed onto divers these days; in other words, shorter fins rather than longer ones. Above all else, he bravely states that not everyone is cut out to be certified as a scuba diver, and he is right. Current standards are dangerously low, all for the sake of revenue growth within the diving industry.

since JJ is a member here, maybe you can share your concerns with him instead of criticize him. And then while your at it, why don't you give us your diving resume so the things you say may carry some weight. We get a lot of new people on here who claim to know everything there is to know about diving, when in reality they are just another sock puppet. And if you don't believe me, ask cornfed who Karl the Klown is. ;)

[MikeFerrara]

boomx5 once bubbled...


since JJ is a member here, maybe you can share your concerns with him instead of criticize him. And then while your at it, why don't you give us your diving resimay so the things you say may carry some weight. We get a lot of new people on here who claim to know everything there is to know about diving, when in reality they are just another sock puppet. And if you don't believe me, ask cornfed who Karl the Klown is. ;)

I had to give my resume why shouldn't every one else:D

[Dryglove]

boomx5 once bubbled...
And if you don't believe me, ask cornfed who Karl the Klown is. ;) AAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!! Dont mention that name!!! He might be resurrected and come back :D

[cornfed]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I had to give my resume why shouldn't every one else:D

Mine is to short to bother typing in!

[Dryglove]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I had to give my resume why shouldn't every one else:D At least you have one to give :D

[cornfed]

boomx5 once bubbled...
And if you don't believe me, ask cornfed who Karl the Klown is. ;)

He is the inspiration for the Karl_in_Calif Memorial Ad Hominem society, what more do you want to know?

[boomx5]

I'll post mine when I get my first c-card. But till then I'm an advanced cyber-tech-diver.

[boomx5]

cornfed once bubbled...


He is the inspiration for the Karl_in_Calif Memorial Ad Hominem society, what more do you want to know?

stop it. That is such a dark page in Scubaboard history we need to forget it.

[cornfed]

boomx5 once bubbled...
I'll post mine when I get my first c-card. But till then I'm an advanced cyber-tech-diver.

I wrote an outline for a cyber diver course and posted it to TDS. Unfortunately, the course materials included the so Paris Hilton video the whole post got deleted... oops

[cornfed]

Don't worry, we'll get you a c-card in no time!

Peak Performance Comprehension Specialty
Why Peak Performance Comprehension?

If you want to fine-tune your comprehension and soar over chat rooms, extend filibusters and prolong your life as a cyber-diver, the Peak Performance Comprehension Specialty course is for you.

What do I need to start?

* Cyber-Diver or Junior Cyber-Diver certification (or equivalent certification from another newsgroup or forum)
* Minimum age: 13 years old

What will I do?

During your Peak Performance Comprehension Specialty course, you'll use Basic Posting Guidelines to recognize trolls and understand obscure references. Then you'll practice the fundamentals of peak performance comprehension during two cyber-dives, including the reading comprehension check, introduction to rec.scuba, correct use of ad hominem, satire and flaming.

How long will it take?

* Recommended Course Hours: five
* Minimum Online Training: two cyber-dives over one day

What will I need?

* Peak Performance Comprehension video.
* Broadband network connection.

If you want to make sure your comprehension performs at its peak, drop by your local Cyber-Dive Center (http://www.scubaboard.com/).

[Dryglove]

boomx5 once bubbled...


stop it. That is such a dark page in Scubaboard history we need to forget it. Yea no more bringing up the K-word.:mean:

[cornfed]

lal7176 once bubbled...
Yea no more bringing up the K-word.:mean:

Does that mean I need to change my signature?

[IndigoBlue]

boomx5 once bubbled...


since JJ is a member here, maybe you can share your concerns with him instead of criticize him.

In his next edition of the book, I am sure he will make whatever changes he has discovered work better than what he now has. I expect someday to see two gauge-mode Suuntos on each of his divers.

Since I do not teach for him, what he teaches does not matter to me.

[MikeFerrara]

IndigoBlue once bubbled...


In his next edition of the book, I am sure he will make whatever changes he has discovered work better than what he now has. I expect someday to see two gauge-mode Suuntos on each of his divers.

Since I do not teach for him, what he teaches does not matter to me.

Wanna bet?

[IndigoBlue]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Wanna bet?

Where is Uncle Pug when we actually need him?

[Dryglove]

cornfed once bubbled...


Does that mean I need to change my signature?
Nah, that would be an injustice and after all it is a memorial to the one who annoyed us the most :D

[JeffG]

IndigoBlue once bubbled...

Where is Uncle Pug when we actually need him?
What do we need Uncle Pug for? (Not that he wouldn't be welcome)

[5615mike]

Scott M once bubbled...
Is there any way to link the LP vs LDs threads to this one? :boom:

Damn, you beat me to it.
Oh, and it's always more fun to beat a dead horse instead of one that's alive.........you get bloody much easier.......LOL

[CincyBengalsFan]

roakey once bubbled...

You betcha! Personally they should have left seat belts in the race cars. There's NO PLACE for seatbelts in recreational vehicles. And after all, when some idiot proposed that they be put in normal cars, most emergency personel didn't know how to deal with some one trapped in a car in that technical gear!

Imagine how many lives would have been saved if we didn't take that techical stuff from the race cars and moved it into normal vehicles!

Oh wait, that reasoning is completely full of it, isn't it?

At least *I* can see that.

Roak

LMAO....LMAO


Uhhh...Apples to oranges dude...apples to oranges...

I was once criticized for trying to compare DIR and PADI....

I guess your trying to compare maybe stock car racing to scuba.....I'm just assuming that's what your doing...Nothing confirmed yet....

LMAO..

It was a good one though...And I follow you.....But again...apples to oranges

POOR DEAD HORSE.....ONE MORE TIME

[IndigoBlue]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


LMAO....LMAO


Uhhh...Apples to oranges dude...apples to oranges...

I was once criticized for trying to compare DIR and PADI....

I guess your trying to compare maybe stock car racing to scuba.....I'm just assuming that's what your doing...Nothing confirmed yet....

LMAO..

It was a good one though...And I follow you.....But again...apples to oranges

POOR DEAD HORSE.....ONE MORE TIME

It won't be dead until Uncle Pug kills it !!!

Oh and by the way, how dare you compare GUE and PADI? After all, the only thing the two have in common is total inflexibility. Nothing else. :)

[pwfletcher]

roakey once bubbled...

You betcha! Personally they should have left seat belts in the race cars. There's NO PLACE for seatbelts in recreational vehicles. And after all, when some idiot proposed that they be put in normal cars, most emergency personel didn't know how to deal with some one trapped in a car in that technical gear!

Imagine how many lives would have been saved if we didn't take that techical stuff from the race cars and moved it into normal vehicles!

Oh wait, that reasoning is completely full of it, isn't it?

At least *I* can see that.

Roak


Now I understand! That must be why DIR divers use one piece seat belts to strap their technical gear to their backs.

Is that what you were getting at Roak?

[CincyBengalsFan]

pwfletcher once bubbled...



Now I understand! That must be why DIR divers use one piece seat belts to strap their technical gear to their backs.

Is that what you were getting at Roak?

That's what all that webbing is for. To manufactur their own cross chest over the shoulder harness system.:D You know..So all that gear doesn't float away in the event of an accident.

[Northeastwrecks]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


That's what all that webbing is for. To manufactur their own cross chest over the shoulder harness system.:D You know..So all that gear doesn't float away in the event of an accident.

I always laugh a bit when I listen to recreational divers who've never taken a GUE course try to explain it. "All that gear"??? WTF.

[CincyBengalsFan]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...


I always laugh a bit when I listen to recreational divers who've never taken a GUE course try to explain it. "All that gear"??? WTF.

Do you think that SCUBA has little gear involved or something? WTF?

suit, fins, mask, bc, tank, regulator with gauges, backup, etc. etc, tool(s).

Call me foolish....But that is "a lot of gear". And this is the skeleton list. If you want something with minimal gear try taking up canoeing. Canoe..Paddles, Life vests.....Pretty simple and really fun too.

I find ironic when I see these these GUE divers consider themselves something above the rest or as you so well put it, recreational diving. Your comment is the perfect example.

Come on down and work with us in the rivers for a little bit. Let's see what kind of diver you are? 0 Viz, 38 degrees, 2.5 - 3.0 Knot current, working with the sense of touch only. Cleaning out water intakes or rebuilding them, lifting boats or like recently hooking up wenches to a sunken bulldozer.

Where do you learn to do this in your GUE or DIR seminar, class, lecture or whatever it is this week. Do they teach you what kind of photographs to take of the water intakes and how to do it in some of these coniditions. Or the photographs we had to take of the bulldozer...A man died on it the day before. I'm sure your "above recreational training" has taught you how to handle this type of scene.

Just your average have fun recreational diver....One of these days I'll take the KNOW ALL class.

[boomx5]

why do you even care about DIR or GUE? You haven't taken the course, and you don't dive that way, so why are you always commenting on it?

[cornfed]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


Come on down and work with us in the rivers for a little bit. Let's see what kind of diver you are? 0 Viz, 38 degrees, 2.5 - 3.0 Knot current, working with the sense of touch only. Cleaning out water intakes or rebuilding them, lifting boats or like recently hooking up wenches to a sunken bulldozer.

Where do you learn to do this in your GUE or DIR seminar, class, lecture or whatever it is this week.

Weren't you the one talking about apples and oranges a minute ago?

[CincyBengalsFan]

boomx5 once bubbled...
why do you even care about DIR or GUE? You haven't taken the course, and you don't dive that way, so why are you always commenting on it?

If someone want's to talk down to "recreational divers" like they are better than everyone else, then I've got a problem with that. And that was the case in my last comment.

But your right....I don't care about either of the two you mentioned.

But I will continue to comment as long as they think they're better than everyone else.

If I continue now....it's just that dead horse issue...Poor horsey

[cornfed]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...

If I continue now....it's just that dead horse issue...Poor horsey

The horse is already dead so why feel sorry for it?

[CincyBengalsFan]

cornfed once bubbled...


The horse is already dead so why feel sorry for it?

Dag gone man...Are you a litagater or something? Haven't you ever felt sorry for something that is dead. Like the dude that died a few days ago on his bulldozer with his son right in front of him....

I'm outta here for a while.....

I'll be back later and try to be the master debator......:D

[boomx5]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...

But I will continue to comment as long as they think they're better than everyone else.


I have taken GUE classes and I don't feel like I'm superior or better than anybody else. There are those type of people on both sides of the issue. I take the DIR approach to diving because for me, it is the best solution to the direction I want my diving to go in. You dive your way because for you, you feel it the best solution. We all have a choice to make in the training we take. I have conviction about mine, you have conviction about yours, so whats the point of arguing?

[MikeFerrara]

boomx5 once bubbled...


I have taken GUE classes and I don't feel like I'm superior or better than anybody else. There are those type of people on both sides of the issue. I take the DIR approach to diving because for me, it is the best solution to the direction I want my diving to go in. You dive your way because for you, you feel it the best solution. We all have a choice to make in the training we take. I have conviction about mine, you have conviction about yours, so whats the point of arguing?

An inferiority complex?

[Big-t-2538]

If you want something with minimal gear try taking up canoeing. Canoe..Paddles, Life vests.....Pretty simple and really fun too.First off...it is clear you don't know much about canoeing....I see no mention of beer or ice cold coolers stuffed with beer....I also don't see anything about the required tipping of friend's canoe when your cooler runs dry b/c you want to get to their beer....


Come on down and work with us in the rivers for a little bit. Let's see what kind of diver you are? 0 Viz, 38 degrees, 2.5 - 3.0 Knot current, working with the sense of touch only. Cleaning out water intakes or rebuilding them, lifting boats or like recently hooking up wenches to a sunken bulldozer

Where do you learn to do this in your GUE or DIR seminar, class, lecture or whatever it is this week.Second...you might want to check into the background of the people you're slamming here...NEW dives in the Northeast...I'm pretty sure he knows what 38 deg, current, and no viz is like....

That aside...GUE's fundamentals class is just that....a fundamentals class. It has nothing at all to do with rescue and recovery of equipment. That type of diving is by no means recreational. I'm not saying GUE doesn't offer tech training....but in any Technical or Commercial application you introduce a large risk factor that cannot be ignored. In order to address those risks, you have to have the fundamentals of diving down...period...that's it. I don't see why or where you get the notion that everything not taught by GUE is a reason to take an open shot at them.


I find ironic when I see these these GUE divers consider themselves something above the rest or as you so well put it, recreational diving. Your comment is the perfect example.I do believe that there are a lot of non-GUE divers out there and here on the board who IMHO stand above the masses of the recreational diving community. People's egos tend to get inflated and the ones who are vocal about what they think is DIR is what gives DIR a bad reputation. Nowadays...many people are associating all "DIR" folks, and those loud "Quasi-DIR" folks with GUE....thus giving GUE a bad rap in some people's eyes. This is not the case.

I plan to continue my diving education with GUE once I get some more free-time, and I don't have to worrk about what's going on at home with my (very very soon to be) 2 kids. I like GUEs motives and philopsiphy....the instructors I have met are first-class, top-notch divers....and they're super nice guys and gals to boot.

[Big-t-2538]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


An inferiority complex? YEah...my bank account seems to be getting smaller and smaller...I feel inferior in that regard.

[Northeastwrecks]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...
Come on down and work with us in the rivers for a little bit. Let's see what kind of diver you are? 0 Viz, 38 degrees, 2.5 - 3.0 Knot current, working with the sense of touch only. Cleaning out water intakes or rebuilding them, lifting boats or like recently hooking up wenches to a sunken bulldozer.

Where do you learn to do this in your GUE or DIR seminar, class, lecture or whatever it is this week. Do they teach you what kind of photographs to take of the water intakes and how to do it in some of these coniditions. Or the photographs we had to take of the bulldozer...A man died on it the day before. I'm sure your "above recreational training" has taught you how to handle this type of scene.


So now you claim to be a commercial diver...... Hmmmm.... This is relevant to what???

Let's see. Zero vis, heavy current, touch contact. Sounds like my last dive on the U-853, except that I was also in 120 fsw. Are your rivers that deep?

I also didn't have surface supplied gas or u/w communications.

Regardless, its obvious that commercial work is different than any type of sport diving. I make no claim to being a commercial diver.

That said, I do see some similarities in some of the concepts. DIR emphasizes training, experience and equipment. According to some of the knowledgeable commercial divers, such as Pipedope, commercial diving also emphasizes these elements, albeit with different types of training, equipment and support that is based upon the different mission of a commercial diver.

Regardless, if you've got the cash and the equipment, I've got the time.

The fact remains that you are continuously shooting your mouth off about DIR when you've never taken a course and, therefore, have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Your alleged commercal diving experience doesn't change that fact.

Incidentally, I don't think that DIR divers are superior merely because they are DIR. My point was that you have no way of knowing, one way or the other, and won't until you take a course so that you can offer actual comparisons that are not based on third-hand internet hearsay.

[Spectre]

Well, I just wasted part of my life catching up on this thread. Since I didn't see _anything_ except the typical pissing contest that we get in all of these threads... time to find another thread to start measuring in.