Does anyone see the trend that's forming? [Archive]

Divesherpa

May 10th, 2002, 02:09 AM

Has anyone noticed that most of the people posting in the tech section are not doing anything really well technical, and the questions are well not technical at all?
It appears that people are jumping on the technical bandwagon, with several posts from people who aren't even certified. There are several people in the bunch who are very helpful (UP and Lost Yooper, the list could continue) but finding something here dealing with matters of concern to people doing dives that require discussion are rare.

Rick Murchison

May 10th, 2002, 08:07 AM

Are you observing, complaining, proposing or just polling? To answer your question accurately, one must have an accurate definition of "technical."
I know what it means to me, but what does it mean to you?
Rick

WreckWriter

May 10th, 2002, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Rick Murchison
To answer your question accurately, one must have an accurate definition of "technical."
I know what it means to me, but what does it mean to you?
Rick

Rick beat me to the question so I'll give my own answer:

Any of the following are technical to my mind:

Diving with multiple gas mixtures switched in water

Diving with rebreather units (any sort)

Diving with other than nitrogen based mixtures

Wreck or cave penetration (serious line penetration, not just swimming through a compartment)

The following are NOT technical to my mind:

Deep air (with no other gasses)
Nitrox
Exterior wreck diving
Cavern diving

I'm sure there's more but it's early....

Tom

NetDoc

May 10th, 2002, 08:40 AM

that unless you are DIR you are not welcome here... maybe we should just change the name of the section???

Or would you have that those of us who are going in a technical direction but are not certified yet just abandon this arena until such time that we are admitted here by presenting our C-cards.

Yeah, I see some trends that I don't like, and I'm gonna get flamed again for expressing them! Patience is a virtue...

Campana

May 10th, 2002, 08:48 AM

this section is very helpful and interesting. I feel that Non DIR folks are welcome here too, it's a good place to learn and have questions answered, and generally my favorite area of my favorite board. Maybe there could be a separate "DIR" section, and I'd read that too, but I don't think it's really necessary.

The "Do you like DIR?" discussions get kinda old, so I don't read em.

large_diver

May 10th, 2002, 09:14 AM

Those of us who aren't technical look to those who are for advice -- as tech divers are more knowledgeable and experienced in advanced forms of diving (in some cases, anyway)....

Please bear with us unworthy rec divers ;-)

daylight

May 10th, 2002, 10:32 AM

There are some nuggets here. Even though it is predominately folks just starting to consider going technical, some of the answers here are excellent and good refreshers/reminders. The regulars demonstrate a significant amount of patience and answer questions throughly.

The fact that this board is civil and doesn't lower itself to personal attacks is refreshing. As with a lot of things, read what you want, keep what you want, discard the rest.

DSAO.
Larry

May 10th, 2002, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by large_diver
Those of us who aren't technical look to those who are for advice -- as tech divers are more knowledgeable and experienced in advanced forms of diving (in some cases, anyway)....

Please bear with us unworthy rec divers ;-)
Yeah, that's how I see it too.

MikeFerrara

May 10th, 2002, 11:19 AM

Like any other info source there is good info here and not so good from people who really dive and people who don't. Sometimes opinions clash in less than a friendly manner. For the most part I think the strict DIR folks are as reasonable and friendly as the rest. While I hold tech and cave certs and conduct cave/tech dives, my diving and experience is no where near as extreme as some. I enjoy talking with those both more and less experienced and have learned from both. I do not think one needs to be a "tech" or "DIR" diver to post here. On a side note I have noticed one trend both on this board and elsewhere. It seems to me that the most experienced divers that I know and meet, while they may be biased toward the way they do things, are not strict DIR or anything else. They seem to be people who take a foundation be it DIR, Hogarthian or whatever and make adjustments to suit their needs.

Bob3

May 10th, 2002, 01:47 PM

Hey, there are a lot of guys posting in the "women only" section. :mean:
What the heck, if it's pertinant to the discussion, post away.

maddiver

May 10th, 2002, 02:33 PM

A good option would be to request that everyone put an abbreviated tech diving CV in their signature line when posting here.....ie

GUE Tech 3/ Iantd DEEP AIR (ha ha ha)
85 Cave dives last year/27Years Diving
15 Wreck Dives (deeper than 200)

3 lines pretty simple that way if your are searching for an 'experienced' POV you can weed some out. Yeah its a honesty thing but I think with a few challenges you will get it pretty close.

SPEEDSTER

May 10th, 2002, 02:37 PM

god forbid someone ask a question without knowing the secret handshake?!

keeping the 'tech' section open to all promotes more interest in tech diving, and eventually more tech divers to buddy up with.

Mike

Divesherpa

May 10th, 2002, 03:31 PM

It's just a question, nothing more nothing less.

I would term technical as mandatory overhead with at least one gas switch.

Someone in an openwater class isn't anywhere near being ready for technical diving, even if they have an unlimited budget and a great instructor.

Ontario Diver

May 10th, 2002, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Divesherpa
It's just a question, nothing more nothing less.

I would term technical as mandatory overhead with at least one gas switch.

Someone in an openwater class isn't anywhere near being ready for technical diving, even if they have an unlimited budget and a great instructor.

How come the gas switch? The most common definition that I have heard is a tech dive is a dive with an overhead environment; be it cave, wreck, or a deco obligation. BTW, this isn't a flame it is a question.

I'd like to call a 100' wreck penetration at 60' on air; a technical dive. (Not like I've done that yet tho' :D)

detroit diver

May 10th, 2002, 04:23 PM

How's this as a start:

Tech = anything over and above (no pun intended) the equivalent of PADI AOW

I don't think of this as a DIR only section. Some of the DIR questions get hairy, but that's nothing new. Lot of great info here.

Divesherpa

May 10th, 2002, 04:33 PM

Doing a 100' dive for an hour in a wreck and not switching gas is going above one's level of training. I am unfamiliar with any agency who trains divers to go into deco on air and complete their deco on back gas. I'm not flaming, I just don't understand the logic in that. What's the contingency for loss of back gas on such a dive?

This is the scenario I am referring to.

Ontario Diver

May 10th, 2002, 05:14 PM

What I meant is a dive with 100 ft of penetration inside of a wreck that is at a 60 foot depth. (I chose this scenario to exceed the PADI Wreck penetration limit of 140 linear feet to the surface)

If I make some small assumptions, like I can do the 100 ft in and out in 40 min. (It is an easy wreck :D) I can calculate that I'd need 112 cu ft of air to do the dive. Using rule of thirds, I'd take along 168 cu ft so I could do the dive on a pair of 98s.

This dive would also require a deco stop at 20 ft for 7 min.

So would this be considered a technical or a recreational dive?
I think that it is technical but still on air.

landlocked

May 10th, 2002, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Divesherpa
Has anyone noticed that most of the people posting in the tech section are not doing anything really well technical, and the questions are well not technical at all?
It appears that people are jumping on the technical bandwagon, with several posts from people who aren't even certified.But this is where the good stuff is! Ok, I posted here once, well.... now twice. I promise, I won't do it anymore. But... is it OK if I just take a little peek now and then? (While I'm confessing, I took a peek in the women's forum too, but that's ok. I'm married and the wife didn't catch me.)

Divesherpa

May 10th, 2002, 06:48 PM

For the record, I'm not totally DIR!

NetDoc

May 10th, 2002, 07:06 PM

Anti-DIR. I just think that some of the DIR advocates could use a few social skills. I think it was George Carlin who said: "You know, many people use the term "holistic" when they really mean "a**holistic ""

CincyBengalsFan

May 10th, 2002, 09:34 PM

Net doc, you have backed me up once before. I agree 100% with you on this matter. Unfortunately I may have spoke my mind a little much for a few people.

Rick Murchison

May 11th, 2002, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by Divesherpa
Doing a 100' dive for an hour in a wreck and not switching gas is going above one's level of training. I am unfamiliar with any agency who trains divers to go into deco on air and complete their deco on back gas. I'm not flaming, I just don't understand the logic in that. What's the contingency for loss of back gas on such a dive?
This is the scenario I am referring to.
Any cave dive is a good deal more technical than a single stop open water dive with a deco bottle, whether the cave dive involves a gas switch or even a stop or not.
Let's keep it simple and make the break at "overhead environment" whether that be a mandatory stop or a physical overhead. In technical diving, stops and gas switches are just some of the tools you use to get the dive done safely; it's the inability to make a direct ascent without significant risk that precipitates the equipment, training and planning that make up the "technical" dive.
--------------------------------------
Now, back to your original question - yes, there's a lot of non-technical fluff in the "General Technical Discussions" area. But I don't see it as a degenerative trend, and welcome the interest of non-technical divers. Becoming a technical diver is an expensive, time consuming proposition requiring dedication and passionate commitment. It is more an avocation than a recreation. Those contemplating the technical route need to know that up front, so they can make an informed decision on whether they want to head down the tech path or not. Many "technical" boards treat newbies as idiots - the idiots are the ones flaming the folks seeking information. If we do it right we will be informative without being concescending (after all, many of the folks expressing interest in technical diving are highly educated, highly respected experts in other fields - and warrant that same respect here), helpful and accurate.
I welcome them here, and don't think the many "flights of fancy" into tangential discussions detract from the value of the area.
Rick :) :) :)

Iguana Don

May 11th, 2002, 11:11 AM

I dislike the "poll" portion of this forum. It seems to me that it would just be easier to ask a question and get answers and opinions rather than taking a poll.

Don't we get enough of them on TV and in the papers without having to deal with them here.

And if you are looking for "tech questions and discussions" you yourself are guilty of "meaningless" discussions.

Just MHO

ID

HDrider

May 11th, 2002, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Rick Murchison
Now, back to your original question - yes, there's a lot of non-technical fluff in the "General Technical Discussions" area. But I don't see it as a degenerative trend, and welcome the interest of non-technical divers. Becoming a technical diver is an expensive, time consuming proposition requiring dedication and passionate commitment. It is more an avocation than a recreation. Those contemplating the technical route need to know that up front, so they can make an informed decision on whether they want to head down the tech path or not. Many "technical" boards treat newbies as idiots - the idiots are the ones flaming the folks seeking information. If we do it right we will be informative without being concescending (after all, many of the folks expressing interest in technical diving are highly educated, highly respected experts in other fields - and warrant that same respect here), helpful and accurate.
I welcome them here, and don't think the many "flights of fancy" into tangential discussions detract from the value of the area.
Rick :) :) :)

:clap: Here Here :clap:

I could not agree with you more or have put it any better!

Tom

DaveDog

May 11th, 2002, 01:37 PM

The idea behind message boards is to help people learn things. May you should start an exclusive one if you like helping people who know less than you. Hell I don't even know what DIR is, I will though. There are no stupid questions.

Dave

Divesherpa

May 11th, 2002, 02:02 PM

And now you are guilty of finger pointing. I only asked a question and stated a couple of opinions about it. There was now slamming anyone, only a very simple question. If you don't like polls, get rid of them. You are a regulator.:)

Uncle Pug

May 11th, 2002, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Rick Murchison
Now, back to your original question - yes, there's a lot of non-technical fluff in the "General Technical Discussions" area. But I don't see it as a degenerative trend, and welcome the interest of non-technical divers. Becoming a technical diver is an expensive, time consuming proposition requiring dedication and passionate commitment.
The problem as I see it is not the interest expressed by recreational divers nor even questions that lead discussions astray...

What does present a problem is recreation divers trying to drag a technical discussion back into the recreation realm and argue from that view point...

Admittedly some discussions posted in the Tech. forum belong in the Rec. forum to begin with...

And some technical discussions might even end up on the rec. forum...

For example:
So far it has seemed impossible to have a technical discussion of DIR as applied to technical diving without recreational divers jumping in with complaints about having DIR shoved down their recreational throats and trying to shut the discussion down or divert it to how someone hurt their feelings and why they hate DIR. How is that productive? If tech divers have a beef with DIR I want to know about it... and try to understand what I may be missing. I understand why DIR may not be a rec. divers cup of tea and even though I might advocate for DIR in a recreational setting it really isn't a big deal at all.

And this is not to say the Tech=DIR or vise versa btw.

Divesherpa

May 11th, 2002, 02:31 PM

UP, I think you read my mind. I spend too much time alone in a cave (does that make me a recluse) to have the people skills that you possess. You hit the nail on the head with your post. Thank you.

sumguy

May 11th, 2002, 03:48 PM

Good post, UP.
But, when a new thread is titled, "Why do YOU reject..." and not, "Why do tech divers reject...", or "Opinions on..." it seems to be an open question to all divers. Just because it's in the tech section, are we supposed to assume it's directed only to tech divers? I'm sure many rec divers visit the forum to learn about tech issues, and just to further their knowlege, genuinely attempting to learn from more experienced divers.

JamesK

May 12th, 2002, 07:27 AM

I think a lot of the reasons for the "not so technical threads" is simple. A lot of people, myself included, are new to the tech style of diving. I just finished my cave intro last month. Others, are simply interested in tech. The ones who really know what they are doing, don't really have any questions, and are here to help mentor those of us that do.

Luckily, I dive with a great deal of excellent tech divers to begin with, and can ask all my DFQ's there. However, many do not have that option.

NetDoc

May 12th, 2002, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by Rick Murchison
If we do it right we will be informative without being condescending

Now THIS is a DIR I could support! You don't have to dismiss the opinions of others to prove your own. You don't have to make short condescending remarks to prove you are all that. You don't have to use a battle axe to peel carrots. Alllow others to have an opinion and respect them. Give us reasons why you hold your opinions, but have an open mind yourself. True humility lets you learn not just from your mentor... but from the babes in the world as well.

This is a BIG tech section... it has been intended for all, else we would have made tech training a pre-req to use it (and we have the means to effect that too). Someone is sure to ask a general question in here as they just don't know what constitutes a technical dive. Being patient and kind will let them explore the possibilities of what tech diving IS... you can dispel myths.

Rick, I don't know how I missed your most excellent post, but bravo! Bravo!

Lance Gothic

May 15th, 2002, 01:10 AM

Brothers & Sisters of Technical Diving,
Divesherpa, Rick Murchison, HDrider, et alia,

We're all on a learning curve. Some are R&D engineers and some just want to know a bit more about how it all gets you to, and keeps you safe, at depth.

As for polls, the R&D guys depend upon 'real time' feedback to enhance equipment design. And for pollsters to engage conversation to involve the rest of us.

Regards,
Lance Gothic
Shibumi

Ari

May 15th, 2002, 08:32 AM

As I figured it out, the technical section is intended for technical discussions, but at the same time it is a very good place for non-technical divers to ask questions and learn.

I am not diving technically, but very happy to read the different posts and post questions from time to time. I really enjoy the kind of knowladge sharing that goes on here. I guess that when I do start diving technically, as I intend to do, it will be based on a lot of info I read here.

But again, if it bothers some of the hardcore guys, I can always find another place to post.

Anyway, thanks to UP, LY, RM and all of the other guys I forget to mention, for always being ready to answer questions and discuss different matters.

Ari =-)

Uncle Pug

May 15th, 2002, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Ari
As I figured it out, the technical section is intended for technical discussions, but at the same time it is a very good place for non-technical divers to ask questions and learn.

Ari, as far as I am concerned you and the other non-technical divers who have questions and want to learn are a valuable part of the tech. section. Good questions help us all learn.

I think that one of the features of the tech sections is to keep technical discussions from getting lost in the very large number of purely recreational posts and at the same time keep the tech discussions from cluttering up the rec. section for those who are not interested.

So we have a technical forum for technical discussions as well as a place for recreational divers to ask technical questions and learn from those with a technical background or training.

IMO that is what the tech section is for and both of those objectives can be met at the same time...

However when those without a technical background or training begin to argue from a recreational diver standpoint and needlessly introduce confusion into the discussion neither objective can be met...

That is not to say that rec. divers' opinions don't count... but it should be obvious that they don't count as much in a technical discussion. Keep in mind that virtually all technical divers have recreational background and training but the opposite is not true. As much as this might chap someones hide: tech divers as a general rule have skill and knowledge that rec divers don't.

Of course the above has to be tempered with this caveat: on an internet forum where credentials are unverified - not all those who claim to be tech divers really are... and of those who are, not all have the same level and quality of training.

Learners Beware.

You ever notice how few posts there are by me on the rebreather forum? At this point I don't even have questions to contribute!:D

Ari

May 15th, 2002, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Uncle Pug

However when those without a technical background or training begin to argue from a recreational diver standpoint and needlessly introduce confusion into the discussion neither objective can be met...

I totally agree with your position. This should be a tech oriented section. As one of my teachers once told me "If you don't have anything productive to add, just keep quiet". I was a little insulted at the time, but as I grew older I found out that he was right. When I don't have answers I either keep quiet ro go home and do my homework. It was a lesson for life.

I appreciate the support I am getting from the technical divers and hope that in the future I will be able to add some wisdom of my own. For the time being, I am learning.

Ari ;)

roguediver

May 15th, 2002, 02:06 PM

I just started my technical training last year and i dont know all or see all. I do like this board it has a lot of good conversation about technical diving, which is good because I still have a lot to learn about this type of diving, but what technical diving means to me my not be the same thing it means to any of you. There is know stupid questions only small minded people with stupid feed back. Like the all knowing all seeing technical GODS (which I am not) that think they have nothing more to learn but have every thing to teach. I prey that I never reach a point in my diving that I think I have nothing more to learn. I still have a lot to learn, if that ever does happen I hope I have scence to hang up my fins for good before I get myself or my dive buddy killed. There is a lot of good information put out on this board keep up hte good work.

:sharky: