California groundfish regulations and divers

I am reading the regulations for California regarding diving and spearfishing. This thread is mainly for those in california, but non-californians will certainly be amused. The west coast is highly regulated when it comes to "federal groundfish" having bag limits split by individual limits of each species with different minimum lengths for many species and complicated seasons that differ depending upon where you are on the coast with 5 different zones. Adding to the complications, they change the regulations on a whim, reducing or lengthening the season as they see fit so that generally within 60 days of the regulations being printed, they are obsolete but still being handed out to anglers as a rulebook. Current regulations are available on the website www.dfg.ca.gov .

So anyhow, after sorting through all of the seasons, bag limits, minumum lengths and zones I read this little line.

California Department of Fish and Game ocean regulations p. 11:

3. Divers and shore-based anglers are exempt from restrictions affecting the RCG complex, ocean whitefish, California scorpionfish, California Sheepshead, and other federally managed groundfish (except for lingcod).

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So I wonder, as a diver, am I not affected by limits, size restrictions or seasons (except lingcod)? I would imagine the survival rate of spearing a fish and then releasing it because its too small would not be that great. I know the season restrictions do not apply, but what about the size and limits? I want to know what the lawyers in the house have to say about this....and what the others that think they are lawyers have to say

Your quote from the Califonia DFG Ocean Fish Regulations is taken out of context. That quote is a footnote in reference to the Season and Depth Limits for the RCG complex. It has nothing to do with bag limits and size limits.

Making sense out of the regulations may seem overwhelming at first, but it's really not that complicated once you get used to the language (legal-ese). Also, the reality in California is that DFG regulations get updated often...you just need to get into the habit of checking the DFG website for regulation updates on a regular basis.

actually I called and checked. I had one warden totally stumped when he looked at it and sent me to another warden. He also said that they could easily be read to mean that, but that they do not.

I don't see how its taking it out of context. If I give you a list of rules, but then at the bottom write a line that says "you are exempt from these rules" you would not be taking it out of context. He mentioned that next year they would try to be more clear on writing those rules. Checking the website has nothing to do with this, they still haven't changed that online.

The regulations on page 10 and 11 would be clear if you understand what a "footnote" is. I'll post snapshots of page 10 and 11 of the regulations, and mark the footnotes for your benefit (see p10.jpg and p11.jpg). The items on page 10 and 11 marked with the number "3" in superscript, correspond to footnote "3." on page 11.

My advice to you to make a habit out of checking the DFG website for updates, was in response to your comments about the DFG making regulation changes on a whim. Needless to say, DFG regulation changes do not get made on a whim. Regardless of whether or not you agree with or understand the reasoning behind mid-season regulation changes, the DFG actually has real reasons for making updates (example: back in 2003, the California Sheephead season was closed early because the predetermined annual landing limits had been reached).

The DFG will post notices on their website before policy/regulation changes go into effect. But, I am afraid that they are not going to re-write the regulations in the middle of the year just because you do not know how to read a footnote.

You sure are rude, I guess you still didn't understand what I was saying. Your advice to me was certainly not helpful as I understand all of those issues very clearly, too clearly in fact, as I work with a few of the biologists from the region 2 headquarters. Perhaps you only fish, but if you participated in all forms of fishing and hunting in this state, other states and other countries like I do, you would understand my frustration with the DFG here in California. Your know it all attitude has exposed a bit more than you intended.

I'm often told that I am too blunt...

So I wonder, as a diver, am I not affected by limits, size restrictions or seasons (except lingcod)? I would imagine the survival rate of spearing a fish and then releasing it because its too small would not be that great. I know the season restrictions do not apply, but what about the size and limits?

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You say that you understand the California DFG regulations, but your comments above cleary indicate that you do not.

Your know it all attitude has exposed a bit more than you intended.

Click to expand...

Really? Then you must understand that I am just having a little fun with your 23-year-old ego because you won't admit that you were having a little bit of trouble understanding the California DFG Ocean Fish regulations. I was just trying to get you admit that the DFG regulations did not make sense to you, and get you to ask specific questions that the rest of us on this forum may be able to help you out with. I've never claimed or suggested that I "know it all"...I just happen to be more knowledgeable than you regarding these specific regulations.

My only real concern is that you may go diving with a speargun and start blasting away at fish without knowing if what you're shooting is legal or not.

ifukuda,

FWIW, I didn't think that you were rude. I thought that you answered the questions that were asked (and that is pretty rare around here).

I could not for one second pretend to understand the rules and regulations, and I certainly do not understand everything listed on the two pages you included. However, it is apparent, even to me, that the footnote does NOT make divers (or anyone else) exempt from bag limits or size limits. That was the original question, and you did answer it. (of course he was asking for lawyers to respond and you never said whether or not you are a lawyer -*smiling*- )

It is somewhat disconcerting that the regulations get changed often. I wonder if they would show some leneincy if you had a print out of "outdated" regulations that were only very recently changed. I suppose "ignorance of the law is no excuse" might apply. Sounds like hunters and fishermen should check on print out the regulations that apply shortly before each foray.


Wristshot

It was never my intension to be rude, but I thought that it was important to understand reality in California...the DFG isn't very flexible when it comes to the interpretation of the regualtions, and the burden of understanding and keeping up-to-date with the latest regulations is placed on anglers and divers.

The California DFG Ocean Fish Regulations might be overwhelming to someone reading it for the first time. I remember having to re-read my first copy of the regulations several times. But, if Californians browbeat the DFG into simplifying the code, the DFG would have no choice but to implement regulations that are much more restrictive than they are now.

The DFG allows anglers/divers to take a given species based on the following restrictions (please correct me if I missed anything):
1) specific geographic area
2) depth
3) season
4) size limits
5) bag limits
6) means of taking
7) boat based angling, shore based angling, diving

It's my understanding that mid-year changes (ex: early closures) generally occur for the following 2 reasons:
1) when a pre-determined statewide maximum landing limit for the species is reached, or
2) when on-going studies uncover an issue that's so significant, the DFG cannot wait until the following year to implement changes.

All of this complexity is to insure that we do not not wipe-out marine game in California. The alternative would be to completely ban species that are less than abundant and/or multiply slowly. Considering the alternative, I personally prefer the way things are now. Actually, I think we have it pretty good here California.

If you or an anyone else on this board has questions about the regulations, you should not be shy about calling the DFG and asking for clarification. Or, you can post a question in this forum. I'm pretty sure that there are quite a few California divers here that can steer you in the right direction. If it's something I can answer,
I would be happy to post a reply.

Best regards,

ifukuda,
Justin also stated that I was very rude in a previous post (with no reasons listed). Don't take it personally. Your response was very detailed and included copies of the actual text. Your response was very tactful and concise. Those of us who aren't very arrogant appreciate your answer.

Justin, Chill out dude!

Ifukuda,
You and Wristshot are correct, you were not rude, I did take what you were saying out of context and I am sorry for reacting erronously to your statements. I have responded more in depth to you in a PM, but wanted to post this here for all to see

Sherpa, the opposite situation was true in your case, you were wrong and got called on it by more than just me, Get over yourself sherpa