Editor's note: This thread is split off from a thread about an accident in the Keys
I'm going to go to the local climbing store and buy two carabiners and some webbing/rope to make something to attach to a buoy or line if need be. Anyone have any suggestions for something similar?
That's probably a poor choice. Trying to hang on to a buoy or line at the surface against a current will put you through a tough experience. Clipping on means you spend the entire time being beaten up as current tries to push you away from your locked position. ooops - there goes the mask - ooops now my hoses are tangled... Crap, six other people just arrived to hold onto this buoy and now I can't get out of this tangled web... Even a moderate current of 1/2 knot or so will beat you up after a few minutes.
Better to have a sausage, line, the skill to deploy it, and the mental preparation to ride a current for a while. Set your direction to stay on the buoy path, or angle toward another boat, or follow a predetermined compass setting. Don't fight currents, and tieing yourself to a tree seldom helps.
MB
May 7th, 2005, 08:13 AM
My previous post referred to clipping youself off at the surface. I'll note that you can do this on a safety stop with a bit more success. Because you are completely submerged and you have a bit more mobility, tieing off to an upline can be handy for a few minutes, but even this can get ouit of control in a stronger current. I've seen many masks eaten by a current while people were flying on a line. On numerous occasions divers in these conditions have tied on to a line at a stop, but then released and gone with the current once they hit the surface.
Important point: the protocol should be part of the briefing. A pre-dive briefing is a good thing! (Hey somebody smack that clown and tell him to listen to the briefing - the captain does this for a living.)
DiveGolfSki
May 9th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Secondly, Jager, the piece of rigging that you're looking for is called a Jonline, and can be made from a 6' piece of braided nylon rope and two sliding bolt clips. You can also purchase them pre-made. (I think DiveRite sells one in a little pouch.) One note about climbing carabiners - they're sometimes called "suicide clips" due to their tendency to attach to cables and rigging underwater in an unpredictable fashion. The sliding bolt clip is much more reliable. You can use them to attach to the bouy/anchor line to take some of the strain off of your arms when doing a safety/deco stop in heavy current.
-Grier
Grier,
You're spot on regarding the suicide clips and using a jonline instead.
Jager,
Aside from emergency situations, the JonLine would be good during deco on an anchor line. Here's picture that illustrates it:
You're spot on regarding the suicide clips and using a jonline instead.
Jager,
Which ever method someone uses to attach to an ascent line great caution should be used... I have revised my dive tips with the help of David Pickens.... Thanks
1. If the current is running, make sure you keep both hands free. I even have a carabineer clip attached to my BC by 6 inches of nylon webbing.
2. The clip is there so I can clip onto the descent line just in case I need to use both hands. You might need both hand to put your mask back on if it is knocked off by the current! It is kind of hard to put your mask on with one hand.....
3. Clipping to the ascent line can prevent being swept away by the current.
Note use caution - - - Clipping to the buoy line should be done only in extreme circumstances when you got to have both hands free or can't hold on any longer. And definitely not too close to the buoy. Some dive shops carry SS clips.... Also, I have wrapped my leg around the line in a "S" configuration to stabilize myself if I clip to the line, if you don't you can twist all over the place in the current. The "S" configuration wrap is handy even when not attached to the ascent line when you have long safety stops when ascending..
Let me know, if there might be other important tips that might be included on the list...
Glenn
KrisB
May 9th, 2005, 03:46 PM
First of all, I'd like to commend John for his comments here. John, I hope that you realize that nobody's placing blame on you or your crew, just trying to understand the events that took place and learn from them. Likewise, nobody's being critical of Vickie for reporting on the incident.
Secondly, Jager, the piece of rigging that you're looking for is called a Jonline, and can be made from a 6' piece of braided nylon rope and two sliding bolt clips. You can also purchase them pre-made. (I think DiveRite sells one in a little pouch.) One note about climbing carabiners - they're sometimes called "suicide clips" due to their tendency to attach to cables and rigging underwater in an unpredictable fashion. The sliding bolt clip is much more reliable. You can use them to attach to the bouy/anchor line to take some of the strain off of your arms when doing a safety/deco stop in heavy current.
-Grier
Actually, the "suicide clip" isn't exactly a climbing carabiner.
The true suicide clip is a "quick snap" or "cap snap" clip -- see here: http://www.lacledechain.com/hardware/acessbrasnap.html for pictures of several formats.
The problem with the suicide clip is its propensity to fill the clip's body with more material than can be unclipped, as there is no space behind the gate to bunch material. Climbing carabiners, on the other hand, can rarely be filled with more than you can easily unclip -- that's part of their design.
Typically, also, the climbing carabiner takes a lot more force to open the gate -- not just a brush up against something, but a definite force to clip it.
With that in mind, I feel more comfortable using carabiners than bolt clips -- if you have to get a bolt clip undone in a hurry, you can run into difficulties... I have. Also, if the bolt clip's lever breaks off (seen that more than once), you are up the creek without a paddle... not someplace I'd like to be with a limited timeframe. :-)
Cheers,
gpatton
May 9th, 2005, 04:08 PM
Actually, the "suicide clip" isn't exactly a climbing carabiner.
Cheers,
The type of clip that I use is similar to one available at WorldWaterSports.com
Called item#15079 Quick Release Webbing w/Carabiner $6.99
Top Features - Large Carabiner for easy access with or without gloves.
Click here to see the "Quick Release Carabiner" clip with webbing (http://shop.worldwatersports.com/scripts/ecatalogisapi.dll/Item?Item=15079&Template=CONVERT720001999&Group=59)
The type of clip that I use is similar to one available at WorldWaterSports.com
Called item#15079 Quick Release Webbing w/Carabiner $6.99
Top Features - Large Carabiner for easy access with or without gloves.
Click here to see the "Quick Release Carabiner" clip with webbing (http://shop.worldwatersports.com/scripts/ecatalogisapi.dll/Item?Item=15079&Template=CONVERT720001999&Group=59)
Glenn
what is "Quick Release Webbing" ? Is it two pieces velcroed together (yes, I am serious -- this is often used as a fall arrestor when you don't trust your placements)?
While that isn't a true climbing carabiner (it appears similar to the ones you get with keychains, sports drinks, etc.) it is the same idea. I prefer these: http://www.bdel.com/gear/micron.php -- while not shock-rated for climbing, they are nearly identical to http://www.bdel.com/gear/hotwire.php but half the price...
GrierHPharmD
May 9th, 2005, 05:42 PM
Thanks for the correction on the climbing carabiners vs. cap snap clips. Looked like some good resources for them also. As for me, I'll stick with the sliding bolt clips, but keep your advice re: bolt breakage in mind. I use marine brass ones (get them at the local hardware for around $1 each, and use them on most of my gear, per Gary Gentile, GUE, etc.
The ones that you listed looked fine for a jonline. In fact, that's the type of clip on the DiveRight line:http://www.diveriteexpress.com/tools/cutting.shtml#jonline
Bottom line is to use something that you're comfortable with, and practice using it in calm conditions, so that when things get bad, deploying the line will be second nature.
I don't want to go too far discussing gear options on this thread, but wouldn't mind discussing them in the appropriate forums, just to see what other folks are doing...
-G
MoonWrasse
May 9th, 2005, 05:47 PM
Well, I'm sure intrigued by this as a potential bit of "safety" gear to tuck in my BCD pocket. Is there another thread already open on this to continue discussion? :)
Web Monkey
May 9th, 2005, 06:46 PM
Thanks for the correction on the climbing carabiners vs. cap snap clips. Looked like some good resources for them also. As for me, I'll stick with the sliding bolt clips, but keep your advice re: bolt breakage in mind. I use marine brass ones (get them at the local hardware for around $1 each, and use them on most of my gear, per Gary Gentile, GUE, etc.
-G
Most of the Jon lines I've seen on the net use some sort of carabiner or other clip that can't be removed under tension with one hand
Wouldn't it be better to use something like a panic snap http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?pf_id=91582
(used for horses) so it could be released with one hand?
Terry
KrisB
May 9th, 2005, 07:44 PM
Most of the Jon lines I've seen on the net use some sort of carabiner or other clip that can't be removed under tension with one hand
Wouldn't it be better to use something like a panic snap http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?pf_id=91582
(used for horses) so it could be released with one hand?
Terry
I couldn't tell how the panic snap opens -- is there a release button, or is it based on tension?
A carabiner can actually be released (with practice), one-handed and under tension. The key is practice. It's unlikely that the jon-line tension would be more than an individual could actually pull against for a momentary movement -- most people can lift their own body weight the inch or so that would be needed.
Web Monkey
May 9th, 2005, 09:09 PM
I couldn't tell how the panic snap opens -- is there a release button, or is it based on tension?
A carabiner can actually be released (with practice), one-handed and under tension. The key is practice. It's unlikely that the jon-line tension would be more than an individual could actually pull against for a momentary movement -- most people can lift their own body weight the inch or so that would be needed.
It's a little hard to describe, so here's a picture of one open and closed:
http://www.ldsleather.com/snapstyles.html
The difference between a panic snap and a bolt snap is that when you slide the collar down, the entire loop falls in half, and doesn't leave a J hook at the end, so it doesn't matter how much tension it's under.
Terry
Stirling
May 9th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Actually, the "suicide clip" isn't exactly a climbing carabiner.
...
The problem with the suicide clip is its propensity to fill the clip's body with more material than can be unclipped, as there is no space behind the gate to bunch material. Climbing carabiners, on the other hand, can rarely be filled with more than you can easily unclip -- that's part of their design.
Typically, also, the climbing carabiner takes a lot more force to open the gate -- not just a brush up against something, but a definite force to clip it.
....
Cheers,
The reason that climbing carabiners are rarely jammed up with more than you can easily unclip is that they are designed to be used with climbing ropes, which are rarely more than 11mm in diameter (and most carabiner gate openings are twice that size). If you take a carabiner into the ocean and clip into a substantial mooring line or anchor line or railing (or whatever) on a submerged wreck, it will have all the properties of a "suicide clip" - and can easily get jammed up over something that you can't unclip easily or quickly.
Just look at the design of any carabiner - imagine the gate swinging open; the size of the opening created by depressing the gate (the space between the open end of the carabiner and the end of the gate) determines what it will take to jam it. The thing that will jam a carabiner is a lot smaller than the internal diameter of the carabiner. The climbing carabiners on this REI site show - for each carabiner if you click on its particular name - the "gate open clearance" which is approximately the width of the object that will barely fit through the gate and then jam it so you can't get it back out. Most of these are at 22-25 mm, which is about twice the diameter of an 11 mm climbing rope.
http://www.rei.com/category/4500681.htm?vcat=REI_SSHP_CLIMBING_TOC
All of that being said, I carry a very long sewn runner (a big loop of webbing formed by sewing the ends together) with two assymetrical D carabiners (with relatively wide gate openings), more or less similar to the Black Diamond Hotwire Anodized Carabiner shown on the REI site. It has several potential uses. But I would not clip the runner to a submerged object *and* to myself; you can clip it to something else and hold the runner like a leash, so you can always just let go.
KrisB
May 9th, 2005, 10:55 PM
The reason that climbing carabiners are rarely jammed up with more than you can easily unclip is that they are designed to be used with climbing ropes, which are rarely more than 11mm in diameter (and most carabiner gate openings are twice that size). If you take a carabiner into the ocean and clip into a substantial mooring line or anchor line or railing (or whatever) on a submerged wreck, it will have all the properties of a "suicide clip" - and can easily get jammed up over something that you can't unclip easily or quickly.
While you are correct in the basic facts, I don't think your conclusion is correct -- with a climbing 'biner, the largest object you can get in is also the largest you can remove.
This should be true for a bolt snap, too, but doesn't seem to be, due to the way there is no space behind the gate.
Something that could be compared is the gate opening to clip body ratio on the two options -- I think you'll find the carabiner has much more room inside for it's gate opening... meaning you can move multiple large objects around inside it.
Stirling
May 10th, 2005, 03:20 AM
While you are correct in the basic facts, I don't think your conclusion is correct -- with a climbing 'biner, the largest object you can get in is also the largest you can remove.
This should be true for a bolt snap, too, but doesn't seem to be, due to the way there is no space behind the gate.
Something that could be compared is the gate opening to clip body ratio on the two options -- I think you'll find the carabiner has much more room inside for it's gate opening... meaning you can move multiple large objects around inside it.
Yes, you can move multiple large objects around inside a carabiner, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that one big object. I agree that the biggest thing that can get in through the gate is also the biggest thing that can get back out through the same gate. But, in fact, that is also true of any suicide clip - nothing passes through the clip that isn't small enough to back out; it's just that backing it out is not easily accomplished if the diameter of the line (or whatever) is close to the size of the opening. If the gate clearance is 24 mm, a 24 mm mooring line will just pass through the gate. But I think it is a mistake to imagine that it will be easy to back it out. And a 25 or 26 mm line may pass through a 24 mm gate because a woven line is flexible; but that doesn't mean you're going to get it back out through the gate without a struggle. It may move around very freely once it is inside the carabiner behind the gate, because the interior diameter of the carabiner is much bigger than the gate clearance. But it won't go easily back through the gate, and that's what you need to unclip the carabiner.
On edit: Here's a picture of a couple of suicide clips -
http://www.divingdirectshop.co.uk/acatalog/clips.gif
With respect to the properties that we are concerned with, they are indistinguishable from a climbing carabiner. A line that would pass easily through the gate of the larger suicide clip would jam inside the smaller clip; but a larger line would do the same thing in the larger clip, or in a carabiner. The only difference is in the size of the line (or whatever) that will barely fit through the gate.
dive
May 10th, 2005, 07:52 AM
While you are correct in the basic facts, I don't think your conclusion is correct -- with a climbing 'biner, the largest object you can get in is also the largest you can remove.
You are wrong a climbing carabineer can become and jammed and very hard to get whatever is in it out and it can get hooked on something without you wanting it to then you are trying to figure out that problem.
gpatton
May 10th, 2005, 10:05 AM
Oh, yeah. Sorry about that.
I am still wondering if there will ever be an answer to the question why somebody who reached the surface and was apparently holding on to a buoy ended up on the bottom after trying to swim to the boat. If the BC was functioning properly, the biggest question in my mind is why it wasn't inflated. If the diver was distressed when he was holding on the buoy, all the more reason to get positive buoyancy before letting go. I just don't get it.
IMHO the conversation about clips and how to deal with the STRONG currents on the Spiegel or anywhere a strong current might be encounter, very appropriate to this thread. IMHO, the current was a factor that contributed to the accident. This conversation is about learning what may have contributed to this accident without pointing fingers at individuals and to promote safety under similar diving circumstances so that other accident can be prevented.
I am offering this info and photos to promote safety while diving the Spiegel Grove or any other offshore dive because of the STRONG currents that you may encounter. Diving in strong current is a diving circumstance that offshore divers need to be prepared for. In my opinion, a strong current is probably the most difficult & dangerous environmental circumstance that diver will face while diving offshore.....
An earlier post was concerned about jamming a line in a clip, this is a definite problem, here is some possible solutions…
When using this type of clip be careful not to jam a big ascent line into the clip. If it is difficult to put the line into the clip because of tight fit, it will be difficult to get the line out of the clip. However, remember that there are three (3) chances to quickly get away from a ascent line that you are clipped to;
1. open the clip and remove the line
2. use the quick release on the webbing of the clip
3. use the quick release on your BC's shoulder adjustment webbing.
Click here for a webpage about the use of the clips and photos (http://www.glennpatton.com/Spiegel/Diving_tips_clip.htm)
There is no substitute for being very familiar with your equipment through training and practice. And there is certainly on substitute for common sense....
pickens_46929
May 10th, 2005, 10:50 AM
However, remember that there are three (3) chances to quickly get away from a ascent line that you are clipped to;
1. open the clip and remove the line
2. use the quick release on the webbing of the clip
3. use the quick release on your BC's shoulder adjustment webbing.
Don't forget you should **ALWAYS** be able to **CUT** your way out as well. Never put metal on metal on metal. One thing that Cavern training taught me is to always be able to cut your way out of something.
You do carry shears and/or a small knife right?
Shears give you leverage in situations where a knife might not be best. They are cheap and you don't feel like you've lost something expensive if you lose them. Knives also have their uses as well. Carry both!
Dave
gpatton
May 10th, 2005, 11:07 AM
Don't forget you should **ALWAYS** be able to **CUT** your way out as well. Never put metal on metal on metal. One thing that Cavern training taught me is to always be able to cut your way out of something.
You do carry shears and/or a small knife right?
Shears give you leverage in situations where a knife might not be best. They are cheap and you don't feel like you've lost something expensive if you lose them. Knives also have their uses as well. Carry both!
Dave
I agree completely, but IMO cutting was not a "quick" solution to gettig away. I carry a large very sharp titanium knife.... I don't carry shears because I don't go in caves or tight places.
Glenn
lamont
May 10th, 2005, 11:12 AM
i'm not sure about those plastic quick releases. there's a piece of marine equipment (for anchor lines or rigging?) which is a metal quick release that will come apart even when under tension that i've read about being used for jon lines. anyone know what i'm talking about?
Charlie99
May 10th, 2005, 07:09 PM
http://www.ldsleather.com/snapstyles.html
The difference between a panic snap and a bolt snap is that when you slide the collar down, the entire loop falls in half, and doesn't leave a J hook at the end, so it doesn't matter how much tension it's under.That panic snap (http://www.ldsleather.com/snapstyles.html#panic) looks like it would be a great clip for the diver end of a reef hook or jon line. Is it prone to unintentional opening? How hard is it to slide the release collar when under tension?
Thanks,
Charlie
KrisB
May 10th, 2005, 07:12 PM
That panic snap (http://www.ldsleather.com/snapstyles.html#panic) looks like it would be a great clip for the diver end of a reef hook or jon line. Is it prone to unintentional opening? How hard is it to slide the release collar when under tension?
Thanks,
Charlie
I think that would be a perfect use for it -- it looks like clipping something with it would take a fair bit of effort (several independant motions).
I don't think it would be too hard to open when under tension -- there would be a bit of friction between the release and the gate, but nothing that wouldn't be easy enough to overcome.
DiveGolfSki
May 11th, 2005, 11:14 AM
I think that would be a perfect use for it -- it looks like clipping something with it would take a fair bit of effort (several independant motions).
I don't think it would be too hard to open when under tension -- there would be a bit of friction between the release and the gate, but nothing that wouldn't be easy enough to overcome.
KrisB and Charlie99
I've been in Eastern Mountain Sports and other "mountaineering stores" trying to see what climbers use to clip on lines on a static (right term?) line like an anchor or buoy line. Haven't found one yet but this looks interesting. I wonder what diameter line can it be used on? Also, the site shows availability in brass or chrome. The former is okay for saltwater but I wonder if they got it in SS. I've emailed them questions on this.
KrisB
May 11th, 2005, 11:24 AM
climbers will generally use a carabiner of some sort to clip to anything. There are a few different types, but loosely summarized:
There are also two popular shapes (with variations, of course):
1. oval
2. 'D'
3. pear
The locking carabiners are used in securing the belayer and belay station (their gates won't open without some form of secondary deliberate action -- the most popular is a screw action).
The wire gates are used anywhere a bent or straight gate is used -- usually a little stiffer of an action, but they save weight. This is key when you're racking 50+ of them.
The straight gates are used to clip to protection (bolts, cams, nuts) connected to a quickdraw (short piece of sewn webbing) that has either a straight gate or a bent gate on the other end, where it connects to the rope.
Bent gate 'biners are *only* used for the rope end of a quickdraw. They were designed to make it easier to clip the rope in.
Now, as for the two shapes:
1. the oval shape is generally restricted to aid climbing and pulley-using. Because of the engineering limitations, they are generally weaker than the 'D' shape.
2. the 'd' shape (and variations) are used for most applications and make a good "universal" carabiner
3. the pear shape 'biners are used primarily (exclusively?) for a belay and almost always locking carabiners.
For a selection of these (and more):
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=667019&product_listing_all=true&bmUID=1115824992250
Puck
May 12th, 2005, 03:03 PM
I couldn't tell how the panic snap opens -- is there a release button, or is it based on tension?
I just saw a basket of these at a surplus store yesterday down the aisle from some $1.99 EMT shears (I bought 5). The panic snaps are pretty simple. You pull/slide the square part in the middle (note the ridges for gripping power) away from the end that opens, and as you do, the hook portion pops open. The store had them with some other hooks/hasps/etc for horse gear, in all sors of sizes.
jonnythan
May 12th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Actually, the "suicide clip" isn't exactly a climbing carabiner.
The true suicide clip is a "quick snap" or "cap snap" clip -- see here: http://www.lacledechain.com/hardware/acessbrasnap.html for pictures of several formats.
The problem with the suicide clip is its propensity to fill the clip's body with more material than can be unclipped, as there is no space behind the gate to bunch material. Climbing carabiners, on the other hand, can rarely be filled with more than you can easily unclip -- that's part of their design.
Typically, also, the climbing carabiner takes a lot more force to open the gate -- not just a brush up against something, but a definite force to clip it.
With that in mind, I feel more comfortable using carabiners than bolt clips -- if you have to get a bolt clip undone in a hurry, you can run into difficulties... I have. Also, if the bolt clip's lever breaks off (seen that more than once), you are up the creek without a paddle... not someplace I'd like to be with a limited timeframe. :-)
Cheers,
You have climbing biners all wrong.
Biners are very easy to open, by design. Smack the spine of one against your hand and listen to the snap of the gate. They're also designed only to hold one piece of rope or webbing. They can hold *much* more than you can effectively get out. If you swing the gate open, the area *above* the free end of the gate is all the room you have to fit stuff to get out.
Bolt snaps are MUCH stiffer
DiveGolfSki
May 12th, 2005, 04:08 PM
I just saw a basket of these at a surplus store yesterday down the aisle from some $1.99 EMT shears (I bought 5). The panic snaps are pretty simple. You pull/slide the square part in the middle (note the ridges for gripping power) away from the end that opens, and as you do, the hook portion pops open. The store had them with some other hooks/hasps/etc for horse gear, in all sors of sizes.
I haven't heard from that company Charlie99 provided a link (asked questions on those panic snaps) on so maybe you can shed some light on this. How thick a rope can the hook portion clip onto (do they come in different sizes?). Is the snap easy to open with thick gloves? What about material... ss or brass?
Puck
May 12th, 2005, 04:20 PM
The ones I saw were brass, and came in maybe 3 sizes. The largest MAY have been 7/8" or 2.5 cm. But this was a surplus store, so there were boxes of marbles, test tubes, rolls of felt, 30 kinds of magnets, small motors, and kites in the same area. I am sure that you can find other sizes at a more conventional retailer.
Easy to get open with a glove, but I do not know about closing them -- might be easy to get a glove caught in them.
KrisB
May 12th, 2005, 04:30 PM
You have climbing biners all wrong.
Biners are very easy to open, by design. Smack the spine of one against your hand and listen to the snap of the gate. They're also designed only to hold one piece of rope or webbing. They can hold *much* more than you can effectively get out. If you swing the gate open, the area *above* the free end of the gate is all the room you have to fit stuff to get out.
Bolt snaps are MUCH stiffer
jonnythan,
I am aware that it's the area above the free end of the gate that all the room to get stuff out each time you open the gate -- you may have to do your removal process twice, but that's life.
I would challenge you to overstuff a carabiner to the point where you can't get everything out, using *only* the gate to insert stuff (no threading it like a needle). When you come up with a suitable configuration, let me know, because I'm very interested in that!
(and another correction -- they're typically used to hold together at least two pieces of rope or webbing, and sometimes more, depending on the application)
On the topic of bolt snaps: they make me excessively nervous whenever I see them. I don't know why -- I've never had a life-threatening experience with them -- but it seems they have a nasty habit of various issues. The issues I've experienced:
1. broken thumb button (impossible to get open without prying something between the gate and body)
2. broken spring (no longer clips to anything)
3. gloves impeding access to the thumb button (it slips out of the grip, you can't grip it, etc.)
The only downside (that I'm convinced of) to the carabiner is that the tension it will take to break it is likely beyond even the panic force of an individual! :-)
Also -- I would advocate the use of wire gates for this application for two reasons:
1. they're usually harder to open (less chance of having something threaded)
2. they can be disassembled if necessary, given only a prying tool (and everyone has a dive knife, right?).
jonnythan
May 12th, 2005, 06:45 PM
I've seen dozens of carabiners with broken gate springs (many wire gates avoid this by using the wire as the spring), but never a bolt snap. And if you can break the button off a steel bolt snap, I'm impressed... but hey, that's why you should use nylon line to tie everything to anything made of metal. If the opening mechanism fails and you need to disconnect, you cut the line.
KrisB
May 12th, 2005, 06:51 PM
I've seen dozens of carabiners with broken gate springs (many wire gates avoid this by using the wire as the spring), but never a bolt snap. And if you can break the button off a steel bolt snap, I'm impressed... but hey, that's why you should use nylon line to tie everything to anything made of metal. If the opening mechanism fails and you need to disconnect, you cut the line.
I haven't actually even seen a steel bolt clip -- just brass. Perhaps that's why I've seen broken buttons. :-)
I use a piece of Petzl "string" on nylon webbing for my console -- I'll upload a pic later.
padiscubapro
May 12th, 2005, 10:47 PM
I haven't actually even seen a steel bolt clip -- just brass. Perhaps that's why I've seen broken buttons. :-)
I use a piece of Petzl "string" on nylon webbing for my console -- I'll upload a pic later.
I try as hard as possible to stay away from brass, it corrodes too easily..
Alo be aware that cheap SS snaps usually have no ss springs..
Here si a good source for quality snaps
http://216.36.250.99/nixdogcollars/Page_5.html
Albion
May 12th, 2005, 11:04 PM
I try as hard as possible to stay away from brass, it corrodes too easily..
Also be aware that cheap SS snaps usually have no ss springs..
The second part may be true, but what are you comparing brass with, titanium, Hastalloy, incoloy???
In a sea water environment Brass is far suprieor in corrsion resisitance to SS, It doesnt look as shiney tho after a few dunkings, but that is just a surface coating
Why do you think Propellors are a brass alloy rather than a Stainless Steel based material. how many brass artifacts have you got compared with SS ones?
jonnythan
May 13th, 2005, 09:28 AM
The second part may be true, but what are you comparing brass with, titanium, Hastalloy, incoloy???
In a sea water environment Brass is far suprieor in corrsion resisitance to SS, It doesnt look as shiney tho after a few dunkings, but that is just a surface coating
Why do you think Propellors are a brass alloy rather than a Stainless Steel based material. how many brass artifacts have you got compared with SS ones?
I dunno about the mettalurgy, but I've seen broken brass bolt snaps and my brass snaps have always gotten grindy and stuck feeling after not an awful lot of immersion, whereas all of my stainless steel ones are shiny and remain smooth.
DiveGolfSki
May 13th, 2005, 12:05 PM
Why do you think Propellors are a brass alloy rather than a Stainless Steel based material. how many brass artifacts have you got compared with SS ones?
Could it be cuz brass is cheaper? I dunno, if you're GUE or DIR, they prefer SS, I believe. Besides, it matches all my other hardware .... ;)
