gear configuration question

[nrmrvrk]

Okay, I'm a new DIR diver and having just switched my regulator setup, I'm curious how other people do things.

What is the preferred way to attach a snap hook to your primary second stage (on the long hose) so that you can clip it off to your right D-Ring when you're either on the surface or breathing from another source?

I've seen people use a large O-Ring to hold the snap hook so that you can break it away if necessary. I wonder what other DIR ways people have come up with to attach it. Currently I have a piece of cave line holding mine on because I only had one O-Ring that would work and that went to my SPG snap hook.

Any other ideas?

[roakey]

That particular attachment should be a breakaway or what I've heard referred to as a "fusible" link.

That’s why you’ve seen O-rings used. Me, I have TONS of bicycle innertube around because of all its other uses, so I just attached mine using the innertube. When I took my Cave I class Jarrad Jablonski took a very close look at it and never said a thing, so I assume it “passed.”

Roak

[Munin]

The use of a breakaway is somewhat questionable, though not wrong. I was taught to use cave line on everything. GI says that breakaways are to be used only on the long hose and only when using rebreathers, I believe. Normally the reg in your mouth is donated, even if you are breathing off a stage/deco bottle. This keeps the response to an OOA the same. This way there is enough time to unclip the long hose, thus no breakaway is needed. On an RB, what you're breathing can't be donated, so a breakaway is used on the long hose.

I don't see any reason to use one on an SPG and as far as I know it's not supposed to be done. The only reason to do so would be so that it comes undone if it becomes caught on something and even if it does you should be able to either free it (by backing up, unclipping it, whatever) or cut it. If it does break off, due to entanglement or old age (happens a lot with o-rings) you don't have a clip on the SPG or long hose anymore.

If I recall right, GI said that they are another example of people copying things without understanding them.

That said, Roakey's advice is always very good and he is an excellent source of DIR information. Like he said, JJ didn't object to a breakaway on the long hose. Let's see what the other DIR divers here think.

There should be plenty of discussion on this topic in the Quest archives, including GI's comments that I referred to. Are you on that list, nrmvrk? If you're interested in DIR you should be. IMO, scubaboard is a great place for newbie DIR divers to ask questions that might not get answered very well on Quest, but it helps to get your information straight from the source sometimes.

[Munin]

For anyone that is on Quest here's the discussion on breakaways:

GI's emails on breakaways (http://www.dirquest.com/quest-mail/msg06940.html)

or

http://www.dirquest.com/quest-mail/msg06940.html

[O-ring]

I am rigging my gear as we speak and I was planning on using the O-ring breakaway only on my primary/long hose. #24 cave line to attach SS bolt snap to SPG and to attach bolt snap to backup light(s).

[Uncle Pug]

Well I got tired of the o-rings breaking and so I used zipties to secure the bolt snaps... including the long hose...

A fat ziptie around the hose secures a skinny ziptie that holds the bolt snap... in a pinch it can still be broken free... but not easily...

My Bad?

[O-ring]

What's the downside of using cave line instead of zip ties? I was thinking of going that route if I experience enough o-ring breakage to make me want to change it. Just curious why the jump to zip ties.

Granted, I couldn't "break" it, but I could cut it easily enough. I guess that's the point though...isn't someone making o-rings that work well for this application and don't break all the time?

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by O-ring
Just curious why the jump to zip ties.

Well... just like Roak has scraps of rubber inner tube laying around all over the house I have lotsa zipties...

But you can buy o-rings of any size and thickness at your local hardware store... so if you want to wrap an o-ring around your hose and then slip a zip through that to attach your bolt snap... goforit. :D

[Munin]

I was told that there was no place for zip ties on a DIR rig. A single zip tie holding the bolt snap to the long hose was specifically said to be wrong. UP, I'm curious about what you're describing. Is the second zip tie looped around the bolt snap and held by the zip tie on the hose so that the two form a right angle, ie if they were removed from the hose they would appear to be a figure eight?

My long hose bolt snap is held on by three turns of cave line over the swedge fitting. I have a small zip tie right where the rubber hose starts so the snap doesn't slide. :D

I used to use o-rings and they did break often. I also used a piece of inner tube for a while. It worked fairly well but I thought that if it was thick enough to not break on its own it needed to be stretched too much when it was supposed to break. That's just my experience with it, though.

Zip ties will snap off nicely if you use the small ones. The big ones need to be twisted off. I've never found them terribly reliable unless used the way they're intended to be used, that is, with very little play and wrapped around something approximately circular, eg a mouthpiece.

Basically, I don't see any downside to using caveline. It's 99.9% reliable. If you don't need a breakaway there is none, imo.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Munin
UP, I'm curious about what you're describing. Is the second zip tie looped around the bolt snap and held by the zip tie on the hose so that the two form a right angle, ie if they were removed from the hose they would appear to be a figure eight?

I confess:
Yes... and the skinny one around the bolt snap is the breakaway...

I have a double on the SPG and a single on the goodman handle...

My deco bottle SPGs are tied back with zipties too...

Does anyone see a problem with this?

[Munin]

Before it seems like I'm arguing with UP I should say that I have lots of cave line around and no zip ties. :D I just saw his last post and thought it worth mentioning that he actually has more experience in these matters than I do and that I'm just passing on what has been said by the party elders.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Munin
Before it seems like I'm arguing with UP

he actually has more experience in these matters than I do and that I'm just passing on what has been said by the party elders.
Shoot... you can argue with me all you want... no problem there...
And how do you know that I have more experience in these matters... I could be a putz... :putz:

Anyway... I did have one of the party elders (as you say) look at my deco spg and go "Hmmmm....." and nothing more so who knows?

If you can spot a problem with the zipties I would really like to hear it and I will change if the reasoning is right.

BTW... do you know what holds the inflator mechanism on your corrogated tube under that rubber covering?

[O-ring]

BTW... do you know what holds the inflator mechanism on your corrogated tube under that rubber covering?

Would I be correct if I said zip ties?

[Scubaroo]

I know! I know! Two mouthpiece zipties.

Oooooh, should I replace the ziptie on my mouthpiece? Is it not DIR? :D

I use a tank neck o-ring and a light ziptie on my long hose (hasn't broken yet), and an o-ring and two light zipties on my SPG (I added an extra ziptie after it looked a bit flimsy, couldn't be bothered rerigging it). I reckon the SPG o-ring could be replaced by caveline no problems, as I can't think of any scenarios where you would need to break away the SGP bolt snap - it's either on the D-ring or in your hand. I used to use a single light ziptie on the long hose with no o-ring, but I found that there was no "play", and the ziptie would break too easily by just twisting the hose. The o-ring is like a mini shock absorber, and it hasn't accidently broken yet. The tank neck o-rings I have seem darn tough, I can't see them breaking easily, the ziptie would still go first. Maybe after a bunch of UV and salt water they'll break down though.

[Munin]

Like I said, there's no problem with zip ties used on something round like a mouthpiece or an inflator hose. They hold really well that way (maybe because it's what they were designed to do? :D ) It is really easy to break them off if a twisting motion is possible, like if they're used to hold two things together a la bolt snap. I think the real problem with zip ties is accidental twisting. Is it a real big problem? No. But twisting won't break cave line. It just seems better to me.

My gear does get left out in the sun a lot, and I think that is probably why the o-rings dried out so fast. Cave line is holding up pretty well so far though. It really doesn't matter to much what you use. The difference is marginal. I see no possible disadvantage to the cave line, and remote but potential problems with other methods.

I think that I've seen pictures of wkpp bottles with the spg held in place by a zip tie, so its probably ok. I use a heavy piece of inner tube so that I can relax the hp hose when not in use. I don't know whether that's correct or not.

And UP, you are a putz! ;)

[Lost Yooper]

I've always used #24 cave line. The only zip ties that I use are for the mouth piece, inflator hose, and on some bungie loops.

Mike

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
I've always used #24 cave line.
Why?

[Lost Yooper]

Well, I've never seen the need for a break away on my primary. Even if it's clipped off, the OOA diver will go for the reg in your mouth, and you'll go for the one under your chin. Using cave line was how I learned to do it by Irvine and JJ several years ago, so that's just what I've always done. I haven't been convinced that a break away is the way to go, I guess.

Mike

[Divesherpa]

U_P,
you were questioning using zip ties to hold SPG in place on stages. we use cave line in a little loop, wrapped around 1st stage and around SPG. This keeps it in place as well.
How do you set up the zip tie? I'm trying to picture it, but can't see how.

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
Well, I've never seen the need for a break away on my primary.
I don't use the zipties for breakaway purposes... I use them because they are cheap, easy, handy & available :D

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Divesherpa
How do you set up the zip tie? I'm trying to picture it, but can't see how.
Sherp I don't have the camera here so I can't take a picture and I don't have 1000 words either...

Let me just say that I fold the SPG back against the first stage and put a ziptie on it...

Someone else mentioned using bungee so that they could relieve the strain on the short hose between dives.... it is my understanding that this flextion actually stresses the hose and leaving it in the bent U is better.

[Uncle Pug]

BTW... speaking of zipties and inflator hoses...
Do you know how much pressure is on one of those inflator hose/inflator body connections when the wing is fully inflated or even over inflated and the PRV is blowing???

Well... Shane's inflator needed repair so I removed it and did the repair for him and replaced it... but I didn't have any of those special zipties with the metal insert handy so I didn't finish the job...

I called Shane and told him to get some before our next dive and take care of it himself...

Our next dive was on my birthday - for those of you who haven't read the story yet:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7551

The other part of the story that I didn't include was that as we were hanging on the wall in the current with my drysuit totally flooded Shane looked down at his inflator and remembered something he had forgotten. :eek:

[WreckWriter]

The only snap I have a breakaway on is my primary second stage. I used an oring, folded and looped as shown at http://www.northeastdir.com/images/pages/primaryclipclose2.htm . I used a faucet o-ring from home depot as a yoke face o-ring seemed too small and a tank neck o-ring would take a damn good pull to break I think.

I'm actually thinking of changing my setup on this as the o-ring, and of course the snap hook, wants to migrate down the hose rather than staying up by the second stage. I tried making sure it was in the groove where the hose attaches but it still migrated.

The rest of my snaps, including SPG, are all tied on with nylon line.

Tom

[Scuba446]

I have my bolt snap on my primary with a zip tie as well.....is this unsafe? Sure, it COULD be cut free if entangled, but is that correct vs an O-ring?

[Iguana Don]

The use of a zip tie needs to be changed to an O-ring.

Zip tie makes it a cut-away instead of a break-away.

[Scuba446]

Ooo, thats what I thought...thanks....same with the SPG, right? ALL should be on O-rings, right?

[Scubaroo]

Scuba446,

I used to use just a ziptie on my primary regulator hose - but found that either the ziptie was too strong to break, or too weak and would break off accidently if you twisted it. I now use a tank neck o-ring passed through the bolt eye, and pass a small ziptie through the o-ring either side of the bolt eye, and tie the ziptie off around the hose. The ziptie is still the breakaway piece, but the o-ring gives the connection enough flexibility that it doesn't break accidently. For a harder to break connection, I would just use a stronger ziptie that means the tough o-ring would be the first point to break. I'll try and get some photos of it posted later this weekend.

Ben

[Rick Murchison]

I use breakaways (various widths & sizes cut from innertubes) dang near everywhere... never had one break prematurely. They do take checking and changing more often than zip ties... but I like to know that if I really need to, I can force the issue without resorting to digging out the knife or scissors. I even carry a few spares in my pocket, just in case.
Rick :)

[Scubaroo]

Here's my version of breakaway clips. On the primary second stage, I use a tank neck o-ring, and a light ziptie. The ziptie is weaker than the o-ring, but the o-ring gives some stretch and flexibility to the connection, so with a good pull the ziptie will break, and the second stage come free of the D-ring. The only time I really see myself having to use this is if I've clipped off the second stage to my shoulder D-ring, and get dumped by a wave or something on a shore exit/entry (and I'm usually holding the reg in my hand anyway, and I also have the necklaced secondary regulator). On the SPG, I use a much heavier ziptie, that is stronger than the o-ring, so a much harder pull is needed to break it, and the o-ring would break first instead of the ziptie. This would only ever be needed to break in the event of an entanglement, and the connection needs to be strong enough to withstand repeated clipping/unclipping of the SPG without accidently breaking and becoming an annoyance. I replaced the two small zipties on the SPG I mentioned in my earlier post before taking the picture.

On my backup lights I use cave line, as they don't need to be a breakaway connection.

[Mas]

WreckWriter,
If you should choose not to go with bengiddens' set-up, perhaps a ziptie attached beside your o-ring attachment will solve the problem of the clip migrating down the hose. Just a thought.

[Ground0]

I think #18 nylon cord, aka cave line, is to strong to be a breakaway line. If I remember correctly it has a breaking strength of about 150lbs. Hum dont think I could break it without dragging you all over the ocean. The reason you use cave line on tying on a SPG or other snaplinks is you can CUT it. I dont even trust a O-ring to be very breakaway and use a small velcro loop. Seem to work for me and easy to replace or make.

cheers

[cybordolphin]

Hmmmmmmmm.... cutting away an HP SPG....
Sounds like a scary proposition... just don't slip with that knife.
But the velcro strip sounds like it might be a great idea! How does that hold up with the dangling snaplink though? Does it slide down the hose with the weight of the snaplink?

[roakey]

That's why I use bicycle innertube on all my bolt snap attachments (except my scout lights). Pull to break.

Roak

[Diverl]

Just finished my DIRF course last weekend and here is what they told us and why.

Long hose does not need to be breakaway, however you should be able to cut the attachment. SPG should be breakaway. The reasoning was simply. You only ever donate the reg in your mouth so no one should be taking your primary if it is clipped off. If you need to use the primary and cant unclip it you can see it and thus cut the line or zip tie without cutting the hose. If your spg get entanled you need to be able to break it. You can not see it and depending on how and where you get tangled you may have trouble reaching it.