To recertify or not

[Tavi]

The shop that I work with offers free refreshers for life if you do your training with them. Some take advantage of it. Most don't.

I agree that the ones that need it most are the ones that don't take it.

[MikeFerrara]

It would be nice to have a way to get shops to really push the free or nearly free refreshers, as well as continuing education. IF, and that's a big IF, the people who needed refreshers would just go and do them, I'd be against an occasional recertification obligation.

Why oh why should any one provide a free of nearly free refresher? When I ran a dive shop I paid between $50 and $100 per hour for pool time. Most divers at that level used my equipment. I couldn't afford to pay someone else to teach so I had to do it all myself.

If they need a refresher then they should do it and they should pay for it. If they don't want to do it then they take their chances. It's all the same to me. Dive training is more than cheap enough now. That's why most of it isn't any good.

Problem is, lots of people, probably most, won't bother. Except in a very few cases, the people who've asked me for refreshers probably didn't need them, the one's I've suggested a refresher to, wouldn't. I figure the divers on this board are relatively savvy about diving as compared to the majority of divers who don't peruse the message boards, but I'd bet if we today took every poster with 50 dives or more and sat them down and gave them the recently dummed down version of the PADI OW test... most would pass it. The failure or near failure rate might approach or exceed the perfect score rate.n That's kind of sad.

If you were getting a large percentage of your casual divers to do refreshers, then Kudos to you. I wish all shops would be so inclined.

later,

We weren't really getting any one to do it. We just offered it. We had some folks who showed up for one every year before their vacation.

I still don't see it as a problem. Divers are taught that if they are out of the water for a while they should do something to sharpen up and there's a nice add for the "scuba review" right there. Once their told then the choice and the risk is theirs and I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

[MikeFerrara]

I agree that the ones that need it most are the ones that don't take it.

I don't know about that. There were more than a few times when I had to tell a diver that they needed more than a refresher. LOL

[Dive-aholic]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostdiver1957
If they ever try to require recerts - I'll just start my own agency. Kens Diving and recert myself. That's really how easy it is folks. The only reason there aren't a gazillions agencies is because no-one wants to pay the liability insurance premiums. That's the only thing stopping every person out there from starting Joes Diver Training... Bottom line, If I'm my own agency and I only certify myself... if I die, I don't have to worry about suing myself... hope that made sense... Happy Diving.


Great idea, and I've thought of this myself, but will that cert be recognized and accepted by the boats and resorts, etc?

ANSWER:

There is no reason they shouldn't accept it. There are already dozens of agencies being accepted all over the globe. If you have a card that looks professional and says you're a diver on it, I have never seen one turned away. The RSTC and other international bodies are all self appointed agencies. There is no government (local, state, federal or international) that governs scuba diving. Agencies were started by a handful of divers who saw an opportunity to make money. Diving is still a young enough activity (really less than 50 years old) that people are still able to start businesses and do their own thing without a lot of government intervention. Basically as has been stated many times... there is no law requiring a certification to go diving. The only limitations are a bunch of "Good Old Boys" (agency starters) that hold the sport hostage. They tell you you can't get airfills or rent equipment unless you have a certification. They even try to tell you you cant dive without one. That's a hoard of BS. Many of them only have the certifications they issued themselves... so why can't you?

Now don't get me wrong... I believe everyone should get training before going diving... I just don't believe it has to be from SSI, PADI, NAUI, BSAC, YMCA or the smattering of others... Find yourself a competent Diver and learn... just the way those old timers did. The whole game is being run by the moneymakers... agencies and insurance companies... trying to become a big business (and big brother) in the sports world. Whats next? Needing certification to ride a bike? How about certification to play basketball or baseball? How about your other hobbies? Need a certification to skateboard? More people are injured everyyear by those. How about a certification to use a ladder to do work around your house? You get my point...

The funny thing is that most of those places that want to see a c-card to fill a tank... won't ask to see one to sell you a $800 dive computer... it's all about the money

True, but in the US anyway, a c-card from an agency that's not recognized won't get you much. I've had shops question me about hydro markings on tanks hydro'd in Canada because it's a little different. Almost couldn't get the tank filled. Different topic, but not very far removed.

From a different thread:

...The advanced was from a very reputable agency and I recently had an experience with a DM on a live aboard (American Based), who did not recognize my card and wanted me to produce another (so I produced a lesser level card, also from a reputable agency).

And of course the shop will sell the $800 computer. You can't dive without the air, so they think as long as they don't give out a tank of air, everything's okay. I've seen it and heard it. The times I've gotten air without showing a c-card was because I walked in there with my doubles talking like I know what I'm talking about (which I think I do anyway) and walked out with a full tank of air, c-card never left the van. I've also gotten on boats without showing a c-card because I walk on the boat with my bp/w, long hose and tanks. Well, I must know what I'm doing in their minds. But all I had to do was walk into a shop and buy the stuff, filled the tanks at home on a compressor and show up.

[friscuba]

Why oh why should any one provide a free of nearly free refresher? When I ran a dive shop I paid between $50 and $100 per hour for pool time. Most divers at that level used my equipment. I couldn't afford to pay someone else to teach so I had to do it all myself.

If they need a refresher then they should do it and they should pay for it. If they don't want to do it then they take their chances. It's all the same to me. Dive training is more than cheap enough now. That's why most of it isn't any good.

Yep, free or nearly free was a poor choice. Dive shops deserve to make money. But there's gotta be some way of getting people to do those things. I wish there was a magical formula.

[ba_hiker]

I got recertified years ago, after a long period of no diving and a lost (an unrecoverable) dive card. Basically did a full class, minus the pool dives, in one day for about $100. They were a bit nervious until I passed the test (100% correct) and did well in one protected ocean and one open water dives. Got a new card from a different agency.

Since then I spend a bit of time every other year with a DM or instructor. Mostly a class on something new, or else we work on new skills or ones that I don't practice often. I learn a lot this way. This seems much more constructive than repeating the same old stuff every two years or so.

[MikeFerrara]

Yep, free or nearly free was a poor choice. Dive shops deserve to make money. But there's gotta be some way of getting people to do those things. I wish there was a magical formula.

There is. Train them well to start with and then have some faith in your own work by trusting them to take care of themselves by their judgement.

We spend too much time and energy telling people how safe diving is and we go on to prove it by certifying them with a super short class that doesn't teach much or challenge them. As easy and safe as we say it is, why should they believe they have cause to practice , study or get better? They are learning well what we're teaching and everything is working exactly as it was designed to work.

[ghostdiver1957]

Reality... I've kind of been keeping track...

Here is how I was treated (with regard to showing c-card / proving I was certified) on the last six dive trips I've planned and went on:

Most recent:

Roatan Honduras: Asked to fill out a waiver form and list my C-Card # and DAN membership # on a form. Nobody actually asked to see the card/s

Truk Lagoon: C-Cards were collected along with my completed form

Australia: C-Cards were collected along with my completed form

North Carolina USA: Asked to fill out a waiver form and list my C-Card # and DAN membership # on a form. Nobody actually asked to see the card/s

St Lawrence River USA (American Side): Asked to fill out a waiver form and list my C-Card # and DAN membership # on a form. Nobody actually asked to see the card/s

Bahamas Liveaboard: C-Cards were collected along with my completed form

What you see here is a 50-50 chance of getting carded. Probably better than a 19 y/o hottie trying to get into a bar (carded less than 10%,) that might drink and drive and kill herself and all her friends too.

Certifications, laws, rules... whatever you want to call the things we try to govern ourselves by only work if we all follow them and believe in them. The reality is that there are always those that will break the law, disregard the cert requirements, ignore the rules etc... Those people get a free ride... the rest of us pay for our fun. The difference? Not much - except our wallets are lighter/

[divengolf]

The problem doesn't come from the people who read this board. Most of us are frequent divers, who keep up on skills as a matter of pride and common sense. It doesn't make any sense to require recert. across the board.

The problem is the infrequent diver, MAYBE once a year diver, who can't remember how to put his/her gear together. Then they becomes my buddy 'cause I'm the one of the more experienced divers on the boat.

Someone has suggested the 10 dives a year threshold to avoid recert. Sounds reasonable to me. Let the DM or operator determine what/when recert. needs to be done based on their log book and, most importantly, their assessment of the person's skills or lack thereof. If the person doesn't like it, maybe they shouldn't be diving in the first place. Or they can go elsewhere.

Statistics show that most RECREATIONAL dive accidents happen to new or very infrequent divers. New divers deserve to be watched over by the DM or other experienced divers. We were all there once and owe it to them as long as they understand their limitations and take direction.

Something needs to be done about the infrequent diver. They cost all of us $$ in increased insurance and other costs. And they give the sport a bad rep.

Just one opinion.