diver etiquette

[mtg]

I am still tweaked about this whole oriskany removal of 'artifacts' thing...

I'm over Capt Tim and what he did or didn't do, but I am unsatisfied about the ISSUE. (yes: me woman :blinking: ).

Look but don't touch or take seems like a simple enough concept and, if it is as widely accepted as the responses to the original thread would imply, I don't see why there is a problem on charter boats. Self policing was mentioned, and I do believe we do have a responsibility to say something when someone on your boat is pillaging. For southerners at least, I know that confrontation is anathema, but the more peope who take up diving, the more we are going to have to stand up for some kind of diver etiquette. For those of us who are not "into other people", I think we need to take an interest, if only to set a good example and encourage good behavior.

Plus, I really don't see a difference between reef programs and wrecks in terms of taking stuff. Perhaps recovering cargo if you go through the expense of finding the wreck, and the bell or named china, that makes sense. But taking portholes and the like? I see that as defacing (and to what end, really).

It was also mentioned on the oriskany thread that other boats (not charters) are really responsible for most of the pillaging/defacing. I'm not sure I buy that. I haven't seen a bunch of random diver boats parked out at wrecks/reefs. Perhaps others have seen otherwise?

What would you have on your list of etiquette?

 

[Irene]

My list would include:

Lean over the leeward side of the boat to be sick.
Know which bucket is for cameras, and don't put your mask in that one.
Use your mask to pluck water out of the rinse bucket and dump over the side, don't drain your defog into the rinse bucket.
The group exiting the cave has the right of way.
Just like traffic, slow vehicles to the right. Mucho silters: let others pass you.
Keep gear in a small pile. Other people have stuff too.

 

[HowardE]

I haven't seen a bunch of random diver boats parked out at wrecks/reefs. Perhaps others have seen otherwise?

I have seen otherwise... On several occasions. I've dived on reefs and wrecks on friend's private boats. It's certainly not uncommon. - FYI

 

[mtg]

I have seen otherwise... On several occasions. I've dived on reefs and wrecks on friend's private boats. It's certainly not uncommon. - FYI

where is this and how far off shore (ocean, lake)? I guess up here (VA/NC) the sites are pretty far out, so we see fisherman, and other dive boats, mostly.

And thats another thing I want I want to know about - what could be done about a situation like that with random folks out to plunder? Perhaps the coast guard could take an interest in something besides life vests and alcohol? (not to say thats all they do btw)

 

[HowardE]

where is this and how far off shore (ocean, lake)? I guess up here (VA/NC) the sites are pretty far out, so we see fisherman, and other dive boats, mostly.

And thats another thing I want I want to know about - what could be done about a situation like that with random folks out to plunder? Perhaps the coast guard could take an interest in something besides life vests and alcohol? (not to say thats all they do btw)

The furthest out I've seen private boats is a few miles. The oriskany is far out, but if you have a fast boat, they're probably faster than the dive boats.

I'm not here to argue about it... I just wanted to respond to your question that it is done.

are you asking about diver etiquette, or about stealing from protected sites? The two are different questions. Should the coast guard be responsible for policing wreck sites, instead of doing what they do? That's another question too, and perhaps another thread...

If you ARE asking about diver etiquette, I would say that
1) I don't like when people silt up the viz on the reefs by kicking while in a vertical position
2) I don't like when people let themselves run OOA and think it's no biggie like I heard someone say, "I share air with _____ all the time"

 

[kirwoodd]

Honestly I dont see the big deal. Yes, they broke the law. And in doing so they may have made the dive site more dangerous by exposing things that could snag a diver. Yup, got it, thats bad. So I see THAT big deal, but I dont see the big deal in the general concept.

If I am diving on a wooden wreck without a legal notice to keep my hands off, and I see a spike, if I take it am I a bad person? Not if its legal. And what harm have I done?

If I am diving a reef and I take a big ole piece of coral... ok, thats a no brainer, thats bad, hmmkay? But the spike? I dont get it. Keep in mind I am a n00b.

 

[scubafool]

If I am diving a reef and I take a big ole piece of coral... ok, thats a no brainer, thats bad, hmmkay? But the spike? I dont get it. Keep in mind I am a n00b.

To turn the question around, why is it a no brainer with the coral? Why is it less of a no brainer with the spike?

 

[subageezer]

As a kid I used to camp a lot. My crowd took great pride in leaving a campsite much as we found it and would become annoyed to find a mess left by others. Diving is the same thing. Mother nature does just fine if we allow her to do so and leave the site undisturbed. Diver etiquate? All the comments above refer to thoughtless and inconsiderate behaviors which should be discouraged. As a new diver, please tell me nicely the first time I violate an expected behavior and I will correct the problem. As to the issue mentioned, this too is diver etiquate or at the least bad behavior. We as a group should discourage this behavior at every opportunity. I for one am more than content to simply enjoy the dive without taking more than photos and am gratified with the responce this issue has generated on this board.

Maybe the dive community is much healthier than these incidents would have you believe.

To those experienced divers here, thank you for setting the right example for those of us just entering the sport.

 

[Matt P]

I really don't see a difference between reef programs and wrecks in terms of taking stuff. Perhaps recovering cargo if you go through the expense of finding the wreck, and the bell or named china, that makes sense. But taking portholes and the like? I see that as defacing (and to what end, really).

I do see a difference. There is a distinction in my mind between a reef-program ship and a wreck. I completely agree that reef ships are not to be touched.

But, I do not have issues with divers who take a porthole, doorknob, etc from a wreck. Why? For starters, the wreck is unintentional. It wasn't placed there for the purpose of (besides being a reef) being shared by the diving community. Most of the wrecks in this area seem to be from the WWII era. Largely, they are decaying piles of hull plates and collapsing structures. They are not museum pieces that will be here for centuries to come. Many are falling in on themselves and don't look the same from year to year. At some point the wrecks will simply not be. I don't really see picking up a porthole as vandalism.

The tough question is how much is too much? The bell? China? Ok. What about the telegraph? What about light fixtures? Where do you draw the line? Is it vandalism to cut a hole in a turtled wreck to allow divers to enter? What do you do once the allowable list of items have been removed form the wreck?

I do believe there is a such thing as "too much." But, I haven't formulated a clear thought on exactly what is "too much." For now, it's one of those I know it when I see it things.

 

[Matt P]

As a kid I used to camp a lot. My crowd took great pride in leaving a campsite much as we found it and would become annoyed to find a mess left by others. Diving is the same thing. Mother nature does just fine if we allow her to do so and leave the site undisturbed.

As a long-time camper and backpacker your comments speak to me. I share the same sentiment and pride in leaving a site in better condition than when I arrived. But, I'm not so sure that is a the some thing as diving a wreck.

We aren't talking about divers vandalizing nature. I see it more along the lines of stumbling upon a rusty, deteriorating old abandoned pickup truck in the woods. It's been there for decades. Given enough time nature will handle it (a little salt water would help the process). Is it a bad thing for you to pop the 1950's license plate off the bumper?