Why do some people say this?

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littlce

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Location
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I'm a new diver... starting my OW course soon and I am thinking about getting some Scubapro gear. I liked the Air2 system and thought it was an ingenious idea. I also wondered why other BCs didn't have this feature. Then I found this article...

In it is a couple of lines that struck fear into my heart (not really but it sounds dramatic, ya?)
- long hose in OW. octos relegated to dustbin of history
- lecture on why the air-2 is inferior to the long hose

So that brings some questions to mind...
What the heck is a long hose?
Why would you ever get rid of Octos? (unless you had an air2 system :wink:)
And why is the Air2 system inferior to the long hose?

I know this will start the debate going, but I am really just looking for information so I can form my own opinion.

thanks,
Christopher
 
West Texas, huh?

You don't need to form an opinion now Grasshopper, just the opposite. You need to learn to dive... your instructors will lead the way, and you will become.
 
Well, please do a search on "long hose" and you will get more information than you need. Also do a search on Air2 for similar information.

It's all been discussed (to death, really) but I agree with the statements. And, don't worry, you don't get rid of the octo, you just put it somewhere else. There will be two 2nd stages on the rig.
 
The Air 2 is an OK regulator, but it's not a great regulator. Other regulators will deliver air with more ease and will give you less trouble. The Air 2 requires frequent adjustments. As for using the Air 2 in an out of air (OOA) situation, it works quite well. I used an Air 2 for many years and brought many OOA divers up with it.

A long hose is just that, a regulator hose that is longer than you typically find. It's usually either 5 ft or 7 ft in length. The second stage is attached to the long hose. They are essential for for penetrations in narrow passage ways. Typically the second stage on the long hose is used by the diver as his primary regulator. In the event of an OOA situation, the diver with a long hose would do exactly what an Air 2 diver would do - pass the primary regulator and breathe off the octopus himself.

An Air 2 is an octopus, you don't get rid of it when using an Air 2. Divers with a long hose also have an octopus, but many of them refuse to call it an octopus. A rose by any other name...........
 
Most of what you are reading is opinion that someone has turned into law...Try the product yourself if possible before buying.
 
littlce:
I'm a new diver... starting my OW course soon and I am thinking about getting some Scubapro gear. I liked the Air2 system and thought it was an ingenious idea. I also wondered why other BCs didn't have this feature. Then I found this article...

In it is a couple of lines that struck fear into my heart (not really but it sounds dramatic, ya?)
- long hose in OW. octos relegated to dustbin of history
- lecture on why the air-2 is inferior to the long hose

So that brings some questions to mind...
What the heck is a long hose?
Why would you ever get rid of Octos? (unless you had an air2 system :wink:)
And why is the Air2 system inferior to the long hose?

I know this will start the debate going, but I am really just looking for information so I can form my own opinion.

thanks,
Christopher
Christopher,

If you want to get a ScubaPro BC with an Air II for recreational open water diving, go for it. It will work fine for you.

A 'long hose' is a 7' hose often used in overhead environments where restrictions or narrow passageways might require an OOA buddy team to negotiate them in single file. The reg from the (rear) doner diver must reach up to the mouth of the (front) receiver diver.

Redundant second stages - what Walter said. They are a prudent idea.

The Air II system's inferiority is a matter of personal opinion. There is seldom any one universal "best". Most issues are situationally dependent.

For a beginning open water diver, recreational gear such as you describe will work well.

Regards,

Doc
 
I use a long hose/ air 2 combo and I think it's ideal. primary is on a 7foot hose and that is what gets handed off in an ooa situation. I'm comfortable with the air 2 and that's what I switch to. If anyone complains about my air 2 I simply point out that it's for me not them.
 
littlce:
I liked the Air2 system and thought it was an ingenious idea. I also wondered why other BCs didn't have this feature.

Because it is more likely to kill you or your buddy than other alternatives.

In the event of an emergency when you need to use the Air2, you are also likely to have a situation where your buoyancy is also compromised. You are likely to need to make a controlled direct ascent to the surface with two divers in close proximity, who cannot be further apart than the length of the hose connecting them. Having the regulator on the same part of your BC as the buoyancy controls is going to cause you problems.

Imagine this situation: You're PADI trained, so in the event of an out of air emergency (OOA) you will give your primary reg to your OOA buddy, put your Air2 in your mouth, grab your buddy's BC, and then you'll try to make a controlled ascent. If you've already started open water training, you know how little space there is between you and your buddy when you're in this position; hoses are flopping around, your arms are in the space, you're trying to make room for each other to kick, etc.

What can go wrong?

1) Either you or your buddy may knock the Air2 reg out of your mouth because your BC inflator hose, which you need to have in one hand to control your ascent, is right in the middle of your 'area of limited space' (because the Air2 reg on the end of it is in your mouth). That can turn one OOA into two OOA real fast.

2) You might knock your buddy's reg out of their mouth, because you're gonna have your arm, your inflator hose, and your Air2 all right about mouth level in the 'area of limited space', and the chances that you'll give your buddy an elbow to the face are quite high. For obvious reasons, that's a bad thing.

3) You've combined two safety devices into one unit, which means you've compromised your redundancy. If your BC inflator hose fails, you lose both your BC, and your backup reg. If some element of the Air2 system fails and freeflows, you're going to have a rush of bubbles right at the same point where you'll need to grip your BC inflator controls -- that rush of bubbles will make the hose whip around and make it hard to grab and control.

Most "standard" rigs have a hose for the primary, and a slightly longer hose for the "octopus" or secondary reg. Ideally, in an emergency, the OOA buddy gets the Octo, and you keep breathing your primary. That's better than an Air2 (at least you haven't compromised redundancy, and you can get some distance between your hands & mouth).

There is a third option, which uses a "long hose". Search in the DIR forum for a lot more detail, but the summary is this: You have a long hose (5 to 7 feet) which you wear wrapped around your body to control the hose when in normal use. You also wear a backup regulator on a bungee necklace. In an OOA situation, you donate the long hose to your buddy, and you switch to the necklaced backup. There are manifold advantages to this system -- most notably, you and your buddy will be able to separate by quite some distance after the reg exchange, which allows you to both control your buoyancy without having to hold on to one-another, making the safe ascent following the reg donation much, much safer.

Ryan
 
Your comments are truly not based on fact - appears to be mainly fiction.

First off I would like to note that I dive a BP & Wing with a bungied Oct.... In fact I have 3 complete BP rigs for separate activities and locations.

But....

The issue of being worried about have to use your AIR 2 and trying to dump air at the same time is not an issue if you are using a SP (or many other "std" bc) as they have another shoulder dump. In fact when I had a SP BC I almost always used the shoulder dump on the pull string exclusively as it was much easier.

Also having owned (my wife and son still use Air2's), they never needed any more maintenance than a stardard 2nd staqe and in fact that are super durable inflators.

I did not like my Air2 as they did not breath great (the Atomic product does not have this limitation) and I their short hose (the corrigated hose) made it difficult to look fully the right with the Air2 in my mouth.

So each to his own.




rsdancey:
Because it is more likely to kill you or your buddy than other alternatives.

In the event of an emergency when you need to use the Air2, you are also likely to have a situation where your buoyancy is also compromised. You are likely to need to make a controlled direct ascent to the surface with two divers in close proximity, who cannot be further apart than the length of the hose connecting them. Having the regulator on the same part of your BC as the buoyancy controls is going to cause you problems.

Imagine this situation: You're PADI trained, so in the event of an out of air emergency (OOA) you will give your primary reg to your OOA buddy, put your Air2 in your mouth, grab your buddy's BC, and then you'll try to make a controlled ascent. If you've already started open water training, you know how little space there is between you and your buddy when you're in this position; hoses are flopping around, your arms are in the space, you're trying to make room for each other to kick, etc.

What can go wrong?

1) Either you or your buddy may knock the Air2 reg out of your mouth because your BC inflator hose, which you need to have in one hand to control your ascent, is right in the middle of your 'area of limited space' (because the Air2 reg on the end of it is in your mouth). That can turn one OOA into two OOA real fast.

2) You might knock your buddy's reg out of their mouth, because you're gonna have your arm, your inflator hose, and your Air2 all right about mouth level in the 'area of limited space', and the chances that you'll give your buddy an elbow to the face are quite high. For obvious reasons, that's a bad thing.

3) You've combined two safety devices into one unit, which means you've compromised your redundancy. If your BC inflator hose fails, you lose both your BC, and your backup reg. If some element of the Air2 system fails and freeflows, you're going to have a rush of bubbles right at the same point where you'll need to grip your BC inflator controls -- that rush of bubbles will make the hose whip around and make it hard to grab and control.

Most "standard" rigs have a hose for the primary, and a slightly longer hose for the "octopus" or secondary reg. Ideally, in an emergency, the OOA buddy gets the Octo, and you keep breathing your primary. That's better than an Air2 (at least you haven't compromised redundancy, and you can get some distance between your hands & mouth).

There is a third option, which uses a "long hose". Search in the DIR forum for a lot more detail, but the summary is this: You have a long hose (5 to 7 feet) which you wear wrapped around your body to control the hose when in normal use. You also wear a backup regulator on a bungee necklace. In an OOA situation, you donate the long hose to your buddy, and you switch to the necklaced backup. There are manifold advantages to this system -- most notably, you and your buddy will be able to separate by quite some distance after the reg exchange, which allows you to both control your buoyancy without having to hold on to one-another, making the safe ascent following the reg donation much, much safer.

Ryan
 

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