Point-for-point on what's missing from OW Classes

[MikeFerrara]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
Self study course - is the only method I use. It reduces classroom time - to what PADI calls prescriptive teaching only. Students openly discuss end of module reviews, we talk about only what they missed, unless the students themselves would like to talk about something else.

I think the point of my post was to show that PADI materials do cover all of those things - so that an intelligent person like yourself could figure out those things from PADI - and through instructors who teach PADI.

I'm glad you're proof (as all my students are) that PADI covers all of those things - not that it was ever in doubt to those of use who teach PADI.

Go PADI!

I too use self study with my students...but...I use it to free me from having to regurgitate the abc's to talk about all the things that the book leaves out. I don't use it to eliminate classroom time. It seems the longer I teach and the longer I dive the more I have to say to new divers. The book, IMO, leaves many things in drastic need of instructor elaboration.

An example...The book tells students how to find out how much weight they need. It does not say anything about how to figure out where to put it. The result is all the head-up foot-down divers we see working 10 times as hard as they need to to control where they are in the water. Letting students in on this little secret makes a difference in their diving and learning curve that it simply can't be adequately described. You need to see it to get the full impact.

I have many many more examples but the point is that for what most get from their instructor and what I got from my original instructors some could do just as well without an instructor at all. If all the instructor is going to do is grade the test, why not just give students the answer key?

Anyone want to go point for point and talk about what I think is missing and why?

 

[wb416]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Anyone want to go point for point and talk about what I think is missing and why?

Sure... let's hear it!

 

[DiverBuoy]

Do you strongly believe trim is a concept that beginners can grasp - with all the other task loading they are taking on. The VAST majority rent equipment. Then the next time they go to rent they can't remember either the formula to figure out their weight or the exact weight they were wearing during Open Water.

Addionally, the amount would be wrong anyway because the LDS has already changed the line-up for the "Fall Collection". Now the wetsuits are more buoyant, the BC are back inflate instead of balanced jacket style, the tanks went to steel instead of aluminum etc etc. "Aw this weight thing is so complicated - you know what? The need a class just on weight!" Hey guess what , is the reply, there is a class it's called Peak Performance Buoyancy.

Ok I agree a small mention during class - that weight can be distributed to various places on your kit and comes in many forms, clip ons, tank rings, pouches, soft/hard, etc. I agree this has value - but too much and it can not be retained. I invite students every time to come diving with me after Open Water. I give them like 9 ways to contact me, and tell them I'm ALWAYS open for a dive. For the few that actually do call, they wait 6 months or longer and suddenly they want to dive again. It is like remedial diving 101 - trim - what in the heck is that? I can't even remember is the BC the thing you breath off of?

This has nothing to do with the quality of delivery, or how well they did on the test. They just don't have enough repetition for retention. What they really need is practice - time to gain an appreciation for weighting and trim before they could even grasp there value.

IMO - I think this belongs in the PADI PPB or at least in their AOW class. I think the mechanics of diving aren't down pat enough for new divers to even begin to appreciate the value of trim.

I'm going to have to express the opinion - this is TOO much information for brand spankin new divers. I'm going to go with PADI on this one, not putting it into the OW course and manual is appropriate. And a good example of why breaking out the details on weighting into a PPB specialty is a solid move.

It kind of goes hand in hand with comparing DIR to OW. They will never compare. Maybe DIR to Divemaster might be more appropriate. It's like taking the driving test, examiners are concerned with rules of the road, reading street signs, and appropriate behavior with other drivers. Nothing in the test even touches on actual driving skill (ok maybe parallel parking or driving in reverse).

To get this one must take an actual class on HOW to drive. It would cover how to steer the car in various weather conditions, how to apply gas in turns to hold to the road, how to drive backwards and spin the car quickly around and begin to go forward in one fell swoop, how to not hit any cones on a road test, breaking distance on various surfaces, steering into the spin when the car is out of control. Etc, etc. This is more what an advanced class like DIR does for diving mechanics, kits, and philosophy. However, until there is an Open Water course offering from GUE/DIR - divers must still start somewhere - PADI provides that. It gives the divers a starting point, and many of the skills learned, and learned well, apply for a lifetime. Put yourself in a new divers fins for a moment - can you imagine a brand new diver never in the ocean taking a DIR-F class. No way!

By all means ... please continue to list the point-by-point.

thread was spun off PADI vs. Diverlink Forum - under "You be the judge"

 

[wb416]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...

IMO - I think this belongs in the PADI PPB or at least in their AOW class. I think the mechanics of diving aren't down pat enough for new divers to even begin to appreciate the value of trim.

I'm going to have to express the opinion - this is TOO much information for brand spankin new divers. I'm going to go with PADI on this one, not putting it into the OW course and manual is appropriate. And a good example of why breaking out the details on weighting into a PPB specialty is a solid move.

This just seems like teaching to the lowest common denominator to me.

I like the idea of everyone passing as well as the next person, but in the years I taught college classes and seminars, I found that teaching to the upper tier of students was most successful and rewarding for them and me. The great students got their money's worth. The average student that wanted to succeed had to put in the requisite time and effort to do well, or just be mediocre and get by, and the bottom tier... well, it's better that they found out now they were just lazy or this wasn't their niche.

I consistently introduced advanced topics earlier than my peers, and with success. If done with enthusiasm and good coaching, it just plain works!

I think diving is little different. Most everyone can do it, but hardly anyone wants to put in the extra time. But why should they if the bar is so low. If you don't expect them to handle the concept of trim, then why should they. Best way to set students up for failure in the real world is to insulate them from real world expectation. It might look good on your survey at the end of the class, but it doesn't do them a dang bit of good.

Educational principles don't change just because the topic is scuba.... Demonstrate trim, expect trim, embed trim in your other skill exercises... hit it, hit it, hit it!

 

[jbd]

with Mike on this. Trim needs to be taught and learned in the OW class regardless of agency affiliation. I'm new at the scuba instructor thing but I introduce trim during the first session we are on scuba. The concept of hovering is also introduced as well as horizontal descents.

I also agree that teaching should be done to the highest capability of the students, as mentioned by cwb.

What else have you got Mike?

 

[raybo]

cwb once bubbled....

I think diving is little different. Most everyone can do it, but hardly anyone wants to put in the extra time. But why should they if the bar is so low. If you don't expect them to handle the concept of trim, then why should they. Best way to set students up for failure in the real world is to insulate them from real world expectation. It might look good on your survey at the end of the class, but it doesn't do them a dang bit of good.

I don't think there's anything wrong with setting a high standard for almost anything. It's a whole other agument, but the education standards~ in general, not just diving~ are in dire need of help.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I put forth the notion that there are young peole with a bachelor's degree with not much more knowledge than I got in High School. Very discouraging, actually.

But on point~ I think trim should be taught. No, they're not all going to get it. But if you don't teach it, you shortchange those capable of at least grasping the concept the opportunity to start working on it. The "concept" isn't that hard to grasp. Refining the skill is another matter, altogether.

Big distinction there regarding whether it should be taught, IMHO.

 

[MikeFerrara]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...
Do you strongly believe trim is a concept that beginners can grasp - with all the other task loading they are taking on. The VAST majority rent equipment. Then the next time they go to rent they can't remember either the formula to figure out their weight or the exact weight they were wearing during Open Water....

[/i]

Of course I believe it and it isn't an opinion it's fact because I do it with every student in every class. They may be beginning divers but they are doctors and lawyers and chemists and engineers and they can grasp the idea that center of buoyancy needs to be in the same place as the center of gravity. I draw a little picture on the board that a six year old can understand. I show some video that shows trimmed and untrimmed divers. It takes 10 extra minutes of class time. Taking divers who are poorly balanced into OW is insanity and it's why they are bouncing from surface to bottom all the time. Get them trimmed and the learning curve for buoyancy control is cut to a fraction.

Of course they rent equipment and nobody can dive rented equipment well without knowing how to get balanced for proper trim. There is no formula to remember. When they switch gear of course it will change which is why they must learn the process. When we get to OW I don't set their weights up they do. At this point they are a couple of dives from not having me their to hold their hand. The process is simple. The mechanics of it are simple.

When they finish the class their body position may not be perfect. Their finning technique may not be perfect. But they can stay horizontal without fighting and they don't sink when they stop kicking their feet.

Explain to me how you teach neutrally buoyant swimming without having them trimmed. If they are head up and they stop kicking they will sink. Do you call that being neutral. If you need to be moving to stop from sinking or rising you are not neutral.

BTW, I would like to see the PADI name come out of the thread title because I think all the agencies are guilty of the same ommissions. DiverBuoy - Modified title to remove PADI name

Try it. Get them trimmed in the pool in module three when doing neutrally buoyant swimming and the rest of the class will go 10 times smoother especially the open water dives.

 

[sheck33]

cwb once bubbled...


This just seems like teaching to the lowest common denominator to me.

That is exactly what it is. God forbid a class is hard and you actually have to work hard to pass it. But of course the class has to be easy enough so an overweight, smoking man/woman that is exhausted by the walk, with equipment, from the beach to the water can pass the class. And i am not saying this to attack overweight or smoking people. But they dont belong in the water IMHO. If someone that is overweight and or smokes manages to be in topcondition by rigorous training, fine, but if they are not they are a liability. And if you are a non-smoker and have a perfect body, great, but only if you are in good shape. The underwaterworld is unforgiving and dangerous. People amazingly enough take perfect care of their $$$$$ divegear but neglect the most important piece of dive equipment they have...their own body...;-0

 

[DiverBuoy]

Students bounce up and down because they need experience not more classroom time. What they need is time to experience these principles and put them into practice over a number of dives. What they need is to grasp the fundamentals already included in the manual and the class - before anything extra is added. What they need is to understand the amount of weight and what factors come in to play on calculating the amount. What they need to understand is breath control and fine tuning their position with their lungs. What they need to grasp is how to exhale completely to sink and throughout the dive for proper technique. Taught how to not add so much weight that they sink on a full breath. What they need to learn is streamlining - to be shown how to attach all those floating hoses and straps - console, alternate, LPI, slate and BC straps. And to position their body horizontally in the water to stay off the bottom and avoid damaging aquatic life, the reef, or harming themselves.

I argue that trim is too much to introduce to beginners. If you really are giving your students everything taught in the OW Manual they will be at the fine edge of overflow! I know this from experience. I've seen hundreds of classes taught by 5 different CDs, MIs, and a hoard of other experienced instructors. What most of them have to work on is coming back down to the students level. Remembering to teach everything from the eyes of the student. Specifically in OW is this paramount.

Teach trim in a followup class like Peak Performance Buoyancy. All of the local LDS's I've taught for or am affiliated with have an 80-90% continuing education rate. I'd argue the 10% that don't show either stop diving or only take resort courses where an instructor or other professional is present on every dive.

Because we all promote the value of these courses and continuing education throughout the two week open water course - that is why the students see it no other way.

I disagree completely with introducing additional skills to an already completely task-loaded individual. It's like FIFO in inventory control or accounting. If you add one more skill one falls off the back end. If you have students forgetting anything on their dives, if you find yourself repeating classroom things and pool practice at the ocean - just remember you introduced too much to the student. In my circles we don't teach at the beach - students have what's in the manual down pat by that point.

 

[jbd]

In your description of using breath control and horizontal positioning it sounds to me like you are describing someone who is properly trimmed. If thats not trim to you then maybe what we need is a definition by Mike and you as to the definition of trim. It might clear things up a lot for those in this discussion.

Mike--what other point for point items do you have?