what do u think?

[westcoastdiver]

Well here is my Question of the day. I was out with some friends diving last weekend. I was with a few girls and a few guys. The day was nice the water was clear, over all a good day! So there was an open water class going on they were yelling at each other, car stereos blaring, and gear all over the parking lot. All and all they were a bunch of extremely over excited guys. There was another few guys behind us yelling over to the group and they started chatting up the girls that we were with Not a problem. One of the guys walked over and asked if one of the girls wanted to go diving some time (still ok). Here is the problem the guy explained that he was doing a “pro plus course” offered by a LDS one of the open water to instructor 3 month or how ever long things. Here is the kicker and I quote the guy states “ I need to get another 60 logged dives before I can become a certified instructor I just need dives it doesn’t matter where or when” WT*? How many dives does this guy have what is going on? When did this crap factory thinking start? What is YOUR opinion of this? Is it going on everywhere? I now am wondering about the quality of the instruction being taught out there. Have any of you ever asked for a logbook from the instructor before you started a course. Does any one have any experiences with this sort of thing?

 

[Lead_carrier]

Part of the crap going on is a big joke.

I know of instructors that have done 90% of their dives in a quarry in order to get the required number of dives in. The first time he did and ocean dive was when he was doing a checkout as an instructor. IMHO, that just doesn't get it.

Another instructor is letting his students do 10 minutes in the water and then float for 10 in order to get their required number in. No, I'm not exaggerating because I know the students that did and are doing it. One diver logged 10 dives last weekend in a 3 hour period. Now you do the math. I, along with many others, worked hard to get to instructor level and now it seems that some agencies and instructors are making a joke of it.

If it wasn't for the appreciation of that one special student that always comes along and has to work so hard but is so happy when they finish I don't believe I would stick with it. Luckily I get my share of winners and that makes it worthwhile.

 

[westcoastdiver]

It pisses me off at one time if some one asked how many dives or your level of certification it ment somthing but now the certification does not mean s%^t there are Instructors being pumped out here like wild fire! its somthing like 6000 - 10000 $ to get your inst tickett and its a garented course!I t makes me sick to see less than experenced people being given an inst cert and then passing on there inexperence to there students. To be honest I think it is just a matter of time before there are serious accidents. I had an inst asking me how the tables worked what the hell?? it is a sad day for the diving world when the mighty buck is put before of experence and knowledge! I go down and watch the drop in dives and the classes and some of them scare the hell out of me we are blessed here with a few great LDS but there are some that are unbeleaveable I watched an entirer class walking to the site with out buddy checks tanks that were so low that they were barly on the bc's let alone the person would NEVER beable to reach the valve. It just amases me that this subject has been brought up on almost every scuba type discussion board that i have looked at it makes you think . as for me I will NEVER take another course with out seeing the instructors log book first!

 

[MikeFerrara]

Dive shops are taking advantage of the minimum requirements to pump them through. As an instructor I spend way too much time at sites where this kind of training is going on.

As a dive shop owner all I can say is that an instructor or DM card doesn't mean anything to me because my new OW divers are better in the water than most of the instructors I see. I do need to "look at log books". Actually the log book doesn't tell me much either. I need to SEE them in the water and I need to SEE them teach/DM.

 

[rmediver2002]

(short answer)

Not really my feeling but the most correct answer listed...

I do not think the ability to instruct others can be quantified with a set number of dives, number of years diving, or number of certifications you have...

(longer answer)

One problem is not addressing the competency and skill required, before begining to teach something to others (anything not just SCUBA) you need to be completely familiar with it.

This includes the ability to answer questions from students about anything to do with diving, or having the confidence to defer when something is not known and conducting the research on it to answer the question. (knowing were to look...)

I do not think this can be quantified with a set number of dives, number of years diving, or number of certifications you have...

People that begin a description of their skills with how long they have been doing it are usually in my experience just insecure and trying to convince themselves...

People learn at different rates, people also have to know how to recognize personal limitations and not be intimidated by them. Not everyone can play like Michael Jordan regardless of the amount of practice.

Jeff Lane

 

[TwoBitTxn]

The rants on this thread have made the poll meaningless.

It appears the consensus is not the number of dives. Its water skills.

If you want to look at number of dives then look at where they are done. Quality over quantity.

TwoBit

 

[jepuskar]

Here we go again!

The number of dives is irrelevant IMO. Being able to present the material effectively and having sound knowledge of what your teaching is more important than having logged 1 million dives.

You could be the best darn diver in the world, but that doesn't make you an instructor. On the other hand, you could be a decent diver, but the way you interact with your students, makes them feel comfortable around you...thus establishing confidence.

Mike has mentioned before that he really stresses bouyancy to his OW students, seemingly more than anyone else I know. My instructor did not spend much time with me on this, but I performed the skills necessary to pass. However, I took it upon myself to dive alot after certification and the bouyancy thing 'clicked' and now I think I have pretty good bouyancy..enough to take some kick arse U/W video.

ut:

Another issue that is talked about when this is brought up is the experienced gained by doing more dives...meaning...500 dives as opposed to 100 dives. Afterall, people who agree with instructors having more dives are really talking about the experience gained in those dives..I hope! Well anyway, I just don't see how that difference will make someone a better instructor...it might make you a better diver, but that certainly doesn't make you an decent instructor. Now having more dives certainly can't hurt, but I really don't thinks its the whole picture!

Jason

 

[FreeFloat]

I think that, as long as an instructor has

a) a LOT of knowledge - since you never really know the beginning knowledge level of the students

b) good teaching skills - to be able to put the students at ease but simultaneously ensure that they actually absorb what's being taught

c) solid experience in a variety of conditions and situations,

that it shouldn't really matter HOW MANY dives he/she has made. You never know, some of those number of dives might be as tame as a dip in the pool.

 

[ZoCrowes255]

That's ridiculous! It makes those of us who have worked our asses off to get our leadership positions look bad. Someone needs to have a serious word with the shops that do that type of ****.

I know that for my ITC starting next Monday you had to go through what was essentially an apprenticeship with the shop. On top of the agency requirements you had to work as a Training Assistant until the head honchos at the shop decide you are ready to truly start on your DM certification. After that you are free to take the ITC but just because you are an Instructor trained by the shop does not mean the shop will let you teach for them. After finishing the ITC you must co-teach at least one class with one of the veteran instructors and then they might let you have a class. If they don't feel you are up to par they will let you know and work with you to make you up to par. The shop I work for has a HUGE emphasis on making good divers at all levels and hopefully that emphasis pays off.

Back to the original topic of the thread: A person could have 3000 dives under their belt and still be a bad instructor. It's more than just inwater skills it's also PR and attention to detail.

 

[Doppler]

For what it's worth, I'm an instructor trainer... in particular I train technical instructors... and therefore part of my job description is being able to tell the difference between experience, competence and performance. That's tough and sometimes I get it wrong. Someone already said that an experienced diver is not necessarily a good candidate to make a good instructor. However, I am almost certain that an inexperienced diver will be a poor instructor. And actually, a couple of the important prerequisites are empathy and maturity... not mentioned much in the course outline are they!!!


That said, my understanding is that the number of dives is simply there as a benchmark... it's a minimum standard. And part of the problem is that we live in a society where minimums are accepted as being OK. It also happens to be a more or less meaningless standard... but it's there.

Over the years, a few instructor candidates have dropped out of my programs -- complaining that my standards are too high -- and have completed their training with other ITs whose standards are different. This doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling, but it's indicative of the standard of professionalism in this industry and the: "I want what I want and I want it now... It's my right." mentality... did I just rant ??



Oh well, Vote with your dollars folks.

DD