A different twist on an old question

[NudeDiver]

Personally, I don't care if the people I am diving with have ever heard of diving tables - or multiplication tables, or word processors, or calculators, or much of anything else. I just want to know what their water skills are like, whether they have a safety-oriented attitude and whether they know the basics essentials of safe diving - slow ascents, safety stops, etc. I don't care what agency they learned from, whether they can work out equations involving gas laws, or much of anything else that seems to be important to a lot of people I guess.

[Walter]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Walter, it will be good to see the SEI standards to see if this holds true. It seems that you are basing a lot of what you are writing on an unpublished document.

I admit I am going somewhat on faith as Tom (a very trustworthy man) has assured me that the high standards we are used to will be maintained, but will be strengthened in some areas.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

For me, "in depth" would include those rescue skills, and I don't believe SEI has those.

The standards under which we've always operated have always included rescue skills, some of which are more useful and more difficult than those required under NAUI standards.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Also, it's important to remember that a NAUI class's standards are determined BY the instructor.

Yes, NAUI is one of a few agencies that allow instructors to add requirements. YMCA has also been one of those. There's no reason to believe SEI's standards will be any different in that respect. OTOH, there's no way to cover what might be added by a NAUI or SEI instructor, so standards as written by the agency are all we can reasonably be sure unless we are discussing the class of a specific instructor. Since neither of us teaches in TN, what you or I add to our classes is not a factor in this discussion.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

I find the "standards" argument more elitest than anything. But then, I find a lot of the chest banging about which agency is best to be completely ego driven with very little substance at all. It's my HUMBLE opinion that the instructor makes all the difference. Their style, their abilities, their insight as well as their integrity all play into creating a learning experience that should result in a student getting the type of training they want and need.

If I had big banner ads from agencies with low standards, I might take a similar position.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Why make it harder than it needs to be, UNLESS the student wants it that way.

I agree, that's one reason I would never teach one of those classes that have been cut to the bone, they's simply too hard on most students.

[leapfrog]

BOHICA..... EK, you seem very knowledgeable for somebody who hasn't even started yet. You are receiving some very good opinions but it will come as no surprise to you that he/she who advocates SEI may well be a SEI Instructor, PADI is a PADI Instructor or maybe even some people have a vested interest in suggesting one agency over another.

Unfortunately the truth is that it really does all depend on the instructor, in the first instance and on you as a student to continue your education.

As the agencies themselves now hype "independent learning", may I suggest to you that knowledge can be gleaned not only by the set course materials but also by reading books and seeking as much information as possible from independent sources.

As far as some of the other concerns you have mentioned, it seems that you are intelligent enough to push out your own envelope. Don't settle for a particular agency's standards, set your own. If the agency says swim 200, then practice swimming 400. If the agency says tread water for ten minutes, do it for twenty.

Demand to learn buddy breathing, tables, computer usage, gas management and so on.

Not all instructors are minimalists. Many will give you extra time and tuition if you show an interest in going further than a particular evolution requires.

[glbtrekker]

Where does SSI fit into the mix? I haven't really considered them before, but found a local shop and the folks inside seemed to be very professional and helpful. It is the cleanest, best organized shop that I have found in my area. I realize that this may not mean a lot to some people, but I have discovered that those people why pay attention to detail in one area of their business (cleanliness, organization, merchandising) will typically pay attention to detail in another area of their business (training).

[Saspotato]

Originally Posted by glbtrekker

Where does SSI fit into the mix? I haven't really considered them before, but found a local shop and the folks inside seemed to be very professional and helpful. It is the cleanest, best organized shop that I have found in my area. I realize that this may not mean a lot to some people, but I have discovered that those people why pay attention to detail in one area of their business (cleanliness, organization, merchandising) will typically pay attention to detail in another area of their business (training).

SSI and PADI are fairly similar at an open water level. For AOW, the requirements are higher at SSI, you need to do 24 dives as well as four specialties. PADI has five dives for its AOW. I have heard that SSI allows its instructors more leeway to increase standards where as whilst PADI allows instructors to teach beyond requirements, if a student fails at anything set beyond PADI requirements, the instructor cannot fail them. This is what I was told by a PADI instructor so if I am wrong someone pls correct me! I know when I did my SSI OW course, we had to do 8 dives rather than 4 and there were a few extra bits and pieces beyond requirements we had to pass in order to be certified. That is the main reason I picked that shop, as the course was longer and more involved than the other stores in the area (mostly PADI but a few SSI shops with the typical 4 dive OW course).

For specialties, PADI and SSI seem fairly similar.

I recommend if you like that shop best, go with them.

[NetDoc]

Originally Posted by Walter

If I had big banner ads from agencies with low standards, I might take a similar position.

That was not fair, and will now end our conversation. You have lost all credibility with me with this spiteful comment. Welcome to my ignore list.

[Walter]

You get spiteful and insulting in every conversation dealing with standards. There must be a reason. Judging from your reaction, it sounds like I finally dicovered what it was.

[NudeDiver]

You know, Wally, after you kick someone in the balls, it's generally considered quite impolite to spit in his face.

[NetDoc]

Originally Posted by NudeDiver

You know, Wally, after you kick someone in the balls, it's generally considered quite impolite to spit in his face.

It's OK... he has bashed PADI and the other agencies, why shouldn't he resort to bashing me? I won't be reading his last or subsequent posts on this or any other subject. I have never known him to apologize for boorish behavior, so why should he start now? This is my last post on this tangent. I wish him well.

[CoralSeaMan]

The OP now has had an opportunity to see this topic as it often ends.
There are people on this Board that believe that all of the major agencies do not teach enough basic water skills and have seriously watered down the requirements so that beginning divers are unsafe. If you accept that premise it would appear that the only good courses are the GUE and some type of scientific dive training course because they apparently require much more practice experience before granting certification.
Even if you do not subscribe to those beliefs, it still important that you do more than the minimum dives required by the agencies for certification to be an effective and safe diver. The more you dive the more you will come to understand diving and prepare for possible problems. In addition, those early dives should be with a professional to help ensure your safety.