ISO Certification for Dive Classes

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WJL

Contributor
Messages
576
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Location
metro Detroit
# of dives
500 - 999
I shudder to think what would happen if the government ever decided to actively regulate the sport of scuba diving. What if some government agency or bureau told you that by law you had to use a certain type of equipment, or that you had to obey certain limits on where and how you dove? Think about what would happen if this hypothetical agency decreed that everyone had to dive with a backplate and wing, and use a 7 foot hose for their primary. Certain people on this board would rather die than obey. And if the same agency instead decreed that backplate and wing configurations and primaries on long hoses are banned, a whole different crowd of divers would rather die than obey. I think the government should not be involved.

But, it does seem incongruous that under the current system the same person teaching you to dive is the person that issues a "certification" that you have mastered the necessary skills. It's just too easy for an instructor to "certify" students with questionable skills, just to get them diving, and not incidentally, buying gear. As has been hashed out many times in many threads, certain instructors hold students to a higher level of achievement and standards of proficiency than do others. And the instructors who are passionate about diving and turning out skillful students see themselves hurt in the market by competing dive shops that offer cut-rate classes and pass everyone who doesn't drown.

So, what about the idea of having an established standards organization, like ISO, set an objective, testable set of performance criteria for diving instruction? The standard would require that the shop's classes have certain content, and produce students who meet certain defined standards. For example, in a basic open water class, that the students are required to perform certain dive skills, such as removing and replacing the mask, while remaining neutrally buoyant at a certain depth. The dive shop would have to undergo inspection and verification procedures by the standards organization, and then once they did, they could advertise that their classes are, for example, "ISO 9090 Certified". Then, the dive shop could charge more for the certified classes, and explain to new potential divers that their class costs more than the one offered by the shop down the street, because in their class you will learn more and come out with a higher level of skill. If a system like this were in place, then people just getting into diving would have some reason to choose one class over another based on something other than just cost. People choosing dive classes could have an objective standard to use to judge the value of the instruction they are considering purchasing, which is something that doesn't exist now.

I think this could be beneficial to the dive industry. What do you think?
 
WJL,

You likely already know some of my opinions as far as dive training. However now let me say something about ISO and it's automotive industry counterpart QS. I have been in manufacturing for many years and am of the opinion that ISO and QS represent the biggest scam ever pulled in americam industry. These systems do not insure quality. In fact some of the lousiest outfits in manufacturing have full and repeated ISO certification. Essentially ISO only requires you to document what you do and places standards on the documentation. ISO does not in any way insure that your methods are effective.

I have directly been involved in the ISO and QS certification process of several manufacturing facilities and if anything I have witnessed a substancial decline in quality. It has also lead to the creation of high paying positions and entire companies that are nothing but parasitic in nature and contribute nothing.

Based on my ISO and QS experience I can tell you that an agency like PADI with it's extensive documentation and recourses could secure certification over night with little effort. In contrast a small outfit like GUE could be pushed to it's financial limits and be forced to place most of its efforts and recourses into the certification process at the expense of it's main objective.

Again ISO places requirements on documentation not results! ISO only demands that you do what your written procedures say that you'll do not that the procedures are effective.

In my not so humble opinion it is even more important to keep out anything like ISO than it is to keep out the government!
 
I agree Mike,

I have viewed various QS systems as only producing CONSISTENCY, rather than quality. If your document describes how to make a crap object, it MUST always be crap. If you realise it is crap, then you have to change your standard and docs.

QS as it stands is a rip off, with various consulting firms making a lot of money.

I am sure PADI would love the idea.

Adrian
 
Mike,

You were one of the instructors I was thinking about when I went musing off in this direction.

My thinking is not that an agency like PADI or GUE would be certified, but that the individual shop would be certified. I am trying to think of a way to distinguish the training offered by one PADI shop from another, by using some sort of objective criteria that someone new to scuba could understand and rely on.

If I were new to scuba and searching for a scuba instructor, how could I know that your class will make me a better diver than the class offered by some other dive shop. I'm willing to pay more for better instruction, but I'm so new to the sport that I don't even know that there are any differences in what is taught at different shops. I have no idea that PADI exists, what it means, or that there are multiple certification agencies. If I do see the references to PADI in your store, I see that the competing dive shop is also a PADI shop, or NAUI or SSI or TDI or whatever. None of that means much to me. I just want to learn this sport.

I thought of ISO certification because I know what it is supposed to mean in the context of automotive suppliers. I know its expensive and a huge PITA to get ISO certification, but its a name that means something.

This proposal doesn't have to be tied into ISO exclusively, but other standards bodies like UL seem unsuitable. Maybe ASTM would be good. Maybe there should be a private certification agency just for scuba shops.
 
WJL, you hit on something that is, needless to say a big problem for me at the moment. I charge more and I believe I deliver more than some. Ah, but how to convince the customer who knows nothing about diving? I issue the same certification so how are they to compare? If I issued a different card I could claim a default difference but I don't. Word of mouth? No, I don't think so because so many dive in such a way that they meet other divers not other people who will become divers.

Personally I have thought that some kind of independant testing might be worth while. But...who sets the standards and does the testing? If the testing standards are as low as the current "passing" requirements we wouldn't occomplish anything because we would be back to having everyones students pass.
It really seems like a marketing problem which is sad. I think it should be objective. I would be glad to subject my methods and the result (my students skills) to the scrutiny of an independant subjective test as I'm sure you would. I think we are the minority though. The success rate of our students would sure be a telling statistic to our perspective students though wouldn't it?

I wish I had the answer. I wish I had the influence to implement the answer if I had it. Maybe some of us need to band together and create a standard and offer evaluation to certified divers in the hope of making a point. Something to think about anyway.

I recently had a class of referal students. I feel they recieved a really good class. One of the things I talk about in class is how to pick an instructor. One of our students was in the shop to pick up the paperwork for her referal and I asked if she had selected the instructor she was going with at her vacation destination. She said no and that instructors there were a dime a dozen. She won't get it until she sees the other students in the water.

I would love to hear any additional thoughts that you have on the subject.
 
This subject has kind of been touched on in this thread but the way this is phrased is much more clear cut here.

I stand by my comments in the link above, but I'll paraphrase for those who don't follow the link: I don't think there should be any government agency controlling certifications, but individual instructors perhaps shouldn't be certifying their own students.

I think that if, industry wide, instructors knew that their students would be judged by a third party, they would make sure that the students were ready before allowing them to complete the certification process.

Rachel
 
I think that the way to implement this would be to have all certification done by referral. Although there could potentially be shops that "buddy up" it would allow for the students to be independently evaluated. It might cost a student a little bit of extra money, but if that's the cost of the certification across the board, then that's the going rate. I don't doubt that Mike's students would pass with flying colors, but from what I've heard there are plenty of instructors who aren't teaching students to retain the core of the course material and if they were aware that the written and open water skills wouldn't be done by their instructor then the students might study a little harder too, it all factors in to safer more competent divers.

I think that standards about gear configuration are just silly as a concept. The range of things people do when diving are far too varied to be able to make blanket statements about what any one diver should have as a rig on any particular dive. Fact is that gear is the least of the safety concerns when it comes to diving. The most dangerous aspect of diving seems to be the diver him/herself.

R
 
biscuit7 once bubbled...

I think that if, industry wide, instructors knew that their students would be judged by a third party, they would make sure that the students were ready before allowing them to complete the certification process.

Rachel

You mean if they could right? Of course we're assuming here that the instructor could pass.
 
I think this thread would be best served if we stayed in the theoretical instead of reality. If there was independent evaluation, I think we can assume that the results would bubble up to the instructor level.

R
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Personally I have thought that some kind of independant testing might be worth while. But...who sets the standards and does the testing? If the testing standards are as low as the current "passing" requirements we wouldn't occomplish anything because we would be back to having everyones students pass....

I'm thinking of some sort of judging of the instruction rather than testing of the students. Independent testing of the students would be a good thing, but I want to put that idea to one side for now. It might to possible to set up something where the instructor still issues a pass or fail to his or her own students, but some independent testing agency has certified that this shop or this instructor teaches to a higher standard than most others. Then a person new to scuba could have some basis to judge the quality of the class they are thinking of buying.

Let's run with this a little. What we want is some non-governmental independent testing and certification agency that will objectively evaluate the quality of the instruction that dive shops offer. We are going to define the standards this agency will use, so we get to set up whatever standards we think are right. The standards will say what must be included in the class, and what skills must be mastered by the students.

Just for the sake of a concrete example, let's say that the standards require that upon completion of the class, the students must adequately perform the skills taught in a GUE Fundamentals class. From your descriptions, this is very similar if not identical to what you each in your basic open water classes. Most people would agrre that the average open water student doesn't get this level of training. Many divers would say that they don't want it. Some, however, do want more rigorous training, and are willing to pay for it. They just don't know what it is a where to find it.

Now, somebody from this hypothetical agency comes in and reviews the dive shop's classes and says, yes, this shop meets our standards. When a student passes a class from this shop, they are getting a certified high quality education. This certification could be used as a marketing tool by the shop to induce new students to buy instruction from them, and be willing to pay more for it because it is certified to be better. Those who don't care can go elsewhere.

What little I know about ISO is that is a private certification agency that attempts to apply agreed objective standards to measure entities' performance and products in different areas. ISO 9000 is just one of its standards, but there are many others in many different areas of commerce. I think it might be possible for a group of dive shops or instructors to approach ISO with a proposal to implement a dive shop instruction certification based on objective criteria set up by a select group of scuba instructors. To be meaningful, the criteria would have to be quite specific, and beyond the run of the mill training commonly provided. For just one example, the shop could not teach its students to perform skills while kneeling or lying on the bottom.

The details of administering the program are left for another day. What do you think of this idea so far?
 
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