questionable instruction for kids

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bdmod

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We were close to sending our 10 year old to a well known dive shop here in town for a week-long dive camp. They offer a 'junior' certification course.

When I requested that I wanted to go along for their 30 foot open water dive (I'm PADI certified) I was told that only one instructor goes with the kids - no other adults. It turns out that the instructor is the pilot as well, and no one stays surface side. He told me that he is the only adult for 6 to 8 kids, and no-one else can go along.

Needless to say, we're not sending our son there for instruction.

My question is whether this practice is even legal. If not, I may file a complaint with the state. Of course, getting anyone to answer a phone at a state government office is unheard of, so I thought I'd start here first.

Thanks,
 
Those ratios sound high. If there is even one child under 12 the max ratio is reduced. I would have to look it up to tell you exactly what thoug because I don't teach 10 year olds.
 
If I read this right, I will not comment on the suspicious reason for this. Having assisted with classes with young children, I can tell you that I don't feel comfortable with working with children without another adult around. And BTW, I really do love working with children.

In this age of liability issues, one child accused me of abuse because his wetsuit didn't fit quite right and it had to be pulled onto him. That accusation lasted all of an hour, but I had words with the instructor when it was done about leaving me alone at the edge of the pool with a child who was already nervous to say the least. Our Scuba Rangers instructors operate in twos for this reason as well.

I actually PREFER to have parents around as getting children into clumsy gear can involve reaching into a child's personal space. I don't like doing it without the parents helping me. It reassures to the child that nobody is doing anything untoward. The other factor is that at open water training, it may be a little scary and nobody reassures a rightfully nervous little boy or little girl like the people who raised them.

The downside would be the sports dad/mom who wants to tell the child what to do and override the instructors and assistants. I haven't seen this yet, but I can imagine it happening. It will only be a matter of time before I see that scenario. If it happens, it can be dealt with.

As far as the legality, I am not a lawyer. But, even if it is legal, this guy is just begging to be sued. And without witnesses, he will be in serious trouble.

Good luck in finding a shop to handle your young one!
 
that will not permit another certified diver in the water (who has some relationship to the person taking the class) for the certification dives (assuming that other person will pay the boat/park entry/whatever fees, and is not a student in any sense of the word - that is, they're not looking for a "scuba refresher") is a shop/instructor that I would not allow to teach my (insert relative or friend.)

No exceptions from where I sit on this.

There is no reason on God's Green Earth why I should not be able to be that person's dive buddy for those dives. As a certified diver I am per-se more qualified than another student that would otherwise be "assigned" as that person's buddy; ergo, I can only improve the safety of the person I am buddying with in that instance.
 
The padi instructor manual reads:
During any confined open water or open water training dive
that includes 10 and 11-year-olds, the maximum instructor-to studentdiver ratio is 4:1. No more than two children aged 10-
11 may be included in the group of four student divers. You
may not increase this ratio with the use of certified assistants.
My nephew got certified @ 11 and we had to take a private class because of his age. After going thru this, I would not recommend certification till atleast 12. He does a great job diving, but retaining the book work was a lil tuff for him, although he did do it, and scored well on all of his tests. Instructor was really good also. hope this helps
 
It's been helpful to know that I'm not out in left field thinking this situation is bad news. Between the molestation risks, and the loss of life risks, I don't know why any respectable dive shop would operate this way.

My wife and I were certified at this same shop and there were two adult certified trainers for the six adults in our class. But this insistance on no other adults on board just won't cut it for me.

I want to turn this guy in to somewhere, whether it's the PADI folks, or my state board of regulation.

BDMOD
 
bdmod once bubbled...
I was told that only one instructor goes with the kids - no other adults. ... he is the only adult for 6 to 8 kids, and no-one else can go along.
What you describe is not within standards for any US agency that I know of.
As for "legality" that doesn't apply. You can turn your kids over to Joe S. the Ragman for scuba diving or rock climbing instruction at any age without breaking any laws (other than common sense).
In scuba, insurance companies and agencies set standards of practice that must be adhered to in order to be covered by the insurance and/or to be certified by the agency.
And no, we do not "need a law."
Rick
 
Genesis once bubbled...
that will not permit another certified diver in the water (who has some relationship to the person taking the class) for the certification dives (assuming that other person will pay the boat/park entry/whatever fees, and is not a student in any sense of the word - that is, they're not looking for a "scuba refresher") is a shop/instructor that I would not allow to teach my (insert relative or friend.)

No exceptions from where I sit on this.

There is no reason on God's Green Earth why I should not be able to be that person's dive buddy for those dives. As a certified diver I am per-se more qualified than another student that would otherwise be "assigned" as that person's buddy; ergo, I can only improve the safety of the person I am buddying with in that instance.

Actually, I have a lot of experience with this. Almost every class I teach there is a relative or freind that wants to tag along. Instructors have been held responsible for failing to supervise tag alongs. What that means is we count them in our student to instructor ratio and plan on supervising them (so we will take one less student for each tag along). It doesn't matter how certified they are. That also limits the number of tag alongs I will take with any class. We allow it but we charge money for it and require liability releases. I also insist on a skill assesment with them if I haven't ever dived with them so I prefer they make at least one of the pool sessions (if there is pool work for that class).

Other issues come up at times too. If I am short handed or the vis is low or whatever, I may decide I only want two students in the water. If I have two students that means I won't take any tag alongs. Again, it doesn't matter how certified they are.

Also, during a class I sometimes switch buddy teams around. Wether I do it or not and why depends on the class. I don't have any set rules like no husband wife teams or anything like that but there are lots of reasons I might reassign bussy teams. What that means to the tag along is that they might loose their preplanned buddy for some portion of the class.

All this is explained ahead of time of course. And here is the real biggie because it has happened...if at any time for any reason the tag along becomes in any way a detrement or distraction to the class I will exclude them.
 
bdmod once bubbled...
We were close to sending our 10 year old to a well known dive shop here in town for a week-long dive camp. They offer a 'junior' certification course.

When I requested that I wanted to go along for their 30 foot open water dive (I'm PADI certified) I was told that only one instructor goes with the kids - no other adults. It turns out that the instructor is the pilot as well, and no one stays surface side. He told me that he is the only adult for 6 to 8 kids, and no-one else can go along.

Needless to say, we're not sending our son there for instruction.

My question is whether this practice is even legal. If not, I may file a complaint with the state. Of course, getting anyone to answer a phone at a state government office is unheard of, so I thought I'd start here first.

Thanks,

Those ratios are way too high. For 10 year olds it's something like 2:1 or 4:1 if two of the divers are older than..... 12 or something. I'd have to look it up. We don't train many kids that age but the ones we have trained go 1:1.

You could complain to PADI but first I would want to be sure that you really understood him. Is it possible that he meant that he was teaching them all together and then diving with them 2 at a time?

And I could understand not wanting to have the parents along. He definitely wasn't out of line on that part if you ask me.

R..
 
Something I want to add to my last post...

I have had tag along fathers or husbands who haven't dived for 15 years and can't figure out why there are so many hoses now days. I had one students husband that we rescued twice and a third time he just got sick during a dive. I've never done so much paper work for one person in my life.

Once a diver is certified they can dive with who they chose. However until they are certified It's up to me who they dive with.

Oh and BTW, i have never had a tag along who was as good in the water as the students. Well, once. This past weekend I did a private nitrox class for a girl who's grandfather is one of my DM's and a cave diving buddy. I didn't have to charge him. LOL
 
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