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Ok - so by now you guys have probably figured out that in my quest to be the best diver I can be I do a lot of research and ask a lot of questions. Unfortunately for you I believe the "there is no stupid question" cliche.
I saw some video of myself on my fun dive after my ow ceckout and saw that while my back was pretty horizontal - not perfect but good enough for my 5th dive - my legs were hanging down a bit. It makes sense because I was thinking about my spine/wing being horizontal and not "all of me". So I'm trying to figure out what to do before my next dive.
In doing my trim research I found articles suggesting to practice good trim on land using the floor or a bench and saw pictures of students practicing this in a fundies class. Some articles I read said to use the muscle feedback from these excercises to learn what it feels like in the water when you are in good trim position.
So I hit the bench. When I did this I had the distinct feeling of arching my back and subsequent back muscle contraction/strain. So I tried to use what I read in an article where the author referenced a suggestion by a diver named Lynne (wonder who that is) that suggested that you "try and make your body as long as possible" to avoid the hyperlordosis issue (back pain). So, back on the bench - now I'm thinking of making myself long extending myself but it didn't seem to do anything toward raising my thighs/knees.
Of course, I realize that on land my legs weigh a lot more than in the water but I'm not sure what "muscle use" I should be feeling and trying to replicate underwater. So now for the $64,000 question: how do you extend yourself/make yourself as long as you can be/not have horizontal spine and declining legs, without using your back muscles and get the result of lower back pain? Or am I just thinking about this too much while I'm not underwater?
Thanks.
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"Anything is possible when you don't know what you are talking about."
especially on land, you *are* really arched and if you hold that a long time you can feel the burn. it's better in the water but you'll still be a bit achy after the dive for a time or two. remember to bend your knees & flex your feet. if you're 'picnic table diving' ( ), remember that the only thing touching the picnic table is your upper to middle tummy. your arms are out front not touching, your head is up, and your knees are up not touching, too.
the ache goes away, though, after you're used to it. just like frog kicking was exhausting at first & now i can't imagine not doing it even on several-hour long dives, no issue. you'll get better, you'll get stronger, the ouch will fade away!
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...and the days go by, water flowing under ground, into the blue again, into the silent water, under the rocks and stones, there is water underground... - talking heads
What you really want to avoid is doing all the extension in your lumbar spine, because that WILL give you a backache. In addition, I got backaches (bad ones) early in my diving career, which had to do with how my equipment was arranged. For me, heavy integrated weight pouches were not a good thing.
You REALLY want to be sure that you are not flexing at the hip joint. This is the big one -- even people who understand what correct trim IS and want to achieve it, can get lazy and let their knees drop. (Don't ask me how I know this! ) Beyond that, you want a very gentle extension of the spine, NOT focused on the lumbar vertebrae. Danny Riordan says the backplate should only touch you at the top and bottom -- that's a little extreme, but ideal for high silting environments. You WILL get sore muscles from doing this at first, but you shouldn't end up with a throbbing lumbar backache. If you do, you are focusing too much extension in that small part of your spine.
The best way to figure this out is with the help of someone who already knows how to do it. But the second best way is to do what you are doing, and lie on the ground, and figure out how to have your head up and your knees off the ground without turning your low back into a flame pit of pain. For me, the "get your shoulders and your knees as far apart as they can go" image works. Apparently it doesn't work for you, so you have to find another mental image.
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Anybody who says their goal is to become a skilled diver is somebody I want to go diving with!
If you can't find a diver who understands this, see if you know someone who sky dives, the arch used in sky diving is perfect for diving, as well. At least it works for me.
Jeff
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Unless otherwise noted, the writings above are my opinion, nothing more.
I have similar "knee dropping" issues and agree with Matt.
I found myself straining and hyper-extending my lower back at first, until I realized that the "knee drop" is caused by relaxing and flexing my hips. Your butt/glutes are the major hip extenders, so try to focus on tightening up your butt to lift your knees.
You'll probably need a *little* bit of supporting contraction in your lower back, but the major work should be done with your glutes.
On land on the bench I found that I can get that feeling and not tighten my lower back if I make sure the edge of the bench is far enough down my body to be *just* past the bend in your hips - just an inch or two. Hope that makes sense.
Thanks all - I was doing my land excercizes on an ottoman that's cushioned so that my make a difference also. I'll move the floor and then see what I can do to get the proper position without the lower back burn. Then I'll see what results I get in the water.
As always - I appreciate the time you folks take to help newbies like me.
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"Anything is possible when you don't know what you are talking about."
One more quick thought (since it is one of my weak areas, maybe this will help you): Hip flexability. Doing "lunge" stretches and other various hip stretches (along with general stretching) seemed to help me with trim.
Best wishes.
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All my life I've wanted an excuse to wear a knife, and here I have found a sport where it is actually encouraged~ Dave Barry
If one knife is good, THREE are better ~ LeadTurn_SD
How do carry your weights ... integrated or on a belt? I started diving with a weight belt, and noticed an immediate improvement going to integrated weights in a jacket BC, then another improvement when I went to a back-inflate BC.
Obviously not the whole solution, as everyone above has also given you good solid tips, just a thought ...
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" ... when you finally see what goes on underwater, you realize that you've been missing the whole point of the ocean. Staying on the surface all the time is like going to the circus and staring at the outside of the tent. "
-Dave Barry
) that suggested that you "try and make your body as long as possible" to avoid the hyperlordosis issue (back pain). So, back on the bench - now I'm thinking of making myself long extending myself but it didn't seem to do anything toward raising my thighs/knees. 
...and the days go by, water flowing under ground, into the blue again, into the silent water, under the rocks and stones, there is water underground... - talking heads
) Beyond that, you want a very gentle extension of the spine, NOT focused on the lumbar vertebrae. Danny Riordan says the backplate should only touch you at the top and bottom -- that's a little extreme, but ideal for high silting environments. You WILL get sore muscles from doing this at first, but you shouldn't end up with a throbbing lumbar backache. If you do, you are focusing too much extension in that small part of your spine.
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