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In retrospect I should have had a pony bottle as a redundant air source when I was using the Spare Air as my primary.
Not necessarily. The user just needs to keep in-mind the diving envelope of the equipment being used and not to venture outside this envelope. A diver can be in the same situation that you found yourself with a set of doubles. It's a matter of time. The trick is to keep within the envelope. If you went down to 20' and picked up and article and surfaced, you wouldn't have had a problem. If we outstay the amount of breathable air available (which we know before the beginning of the dive barring mechanical failure), what can we expect? Again it's the user not the equipment. The Spare Air was never designed to be used as a primary air source (nor is a pony bottle for that matter).
I see it as far more dangerous to be loading myself down, on every dive, with an item that has a limited operational envelope as to be either unnecessary or inadequate 95% of the time. I prefer to draw a line well south of that 5% situation(s) and add a truely effective redundent system, like a 40 scf pony or better, I don't believe in accidentally having something that might (or might not) serve.
Well Thal, I guess that I'm from the school of thought that 1.5 lbs doesn't load a diver down. That said, I also believe that no diver should tell another what to use.
If I'm wanting a truly redundant system, I haven't used a pony for this purpose in over 35 years. If I'm hooking up a secondary reg, it will be to a full-sized tank. If I'm traveling, I don't feel that carrying a pony bottle on the aircraft is worth the effort.
That said, the focus of my comments are not really intended for someone with your experience. As this is in the Basic SCUBA Discussion area, I think that the conversation should focus on the newer diver, who will generally not purchase a second regulator and pony bottle or have another redundant air source available to them.
Given the industry's move away from buddy breathing, a new diver may well find themselves in a different situation than we did when we first started diving. I believe that a new diver today is generally less competent, has less water ability, is given no real rescue skills and is trained to a lower standard than ever before.
I'm aware that our training programs (and some other instructors) have held the line when it comes to training, but we are in the minority. Although the accident rates have not been shown to increase, there is little doubt in my mind that today's diver is not as prepared to address an emergency, as he would have been in the past. A small, relatively inexpensive redundant air source that will give the diver enough air to get to the surface, seems to be something that's positive. I'm surprised that such an experienced instructor like yourself, wouldn't agree with this.
In retrospect I should have had a pony bottle as a redundant air source when I was using the Spare Air as my primary.
This incident completely discredits the risk compensation nonsense that certain strokes have been spewing in this thread. The brain-damaged argue that divers adjust for a constant amount of acceptable risk. Therefore, if they dive without a redundant source of air, they will be more careful than if they have a redundant source of air.
If that were true, idocsteve would have been extremely careful when diving his single SpareAir rig and would not have gone OOG. Whereas, according to the risk compensation zealots, had he been diving dual SpareAirs he would have been less careful about his gas.
But as we saw, he was diving his single SpareAir stroke rig and ran OOG. Isn't it clear by now that whatever you are diving, you can go OOG? And that having one more breath is better than none? Why is this so difficult to understand? Especially for dives to 20', there should be no debate: When diving your SpareAir rig, you should be diving double SpareAirs, mounted on the front of your harness. The right hand SpareAir is your primary on the long hose. That's what you donate. The left hand SpareAir is necklaced as your backup.
There is no need for this pony nonsense cluttering up the SpareAir rig. The thinking diver realizes that a pony adds complexity for no benefit. It is an attempt to stroke egos by having unnecessary pressure gauges and hoses that make the diver look more "technical," when in fact they simply scream...
Last edited by Reg Braithwaite; January 31st, 2010 at 02:40 PM.
I don't feel that anyone can measure the value of a piece of equipment based upon one diver using it in a manner for which it was not designed. Why is any redundant piece of equipment ever used? Most of us carry redundant equipment on every dive we make. A 2nd second stage (octopus) is carried in-case of an emergency.
Why are there not people scoffing at this? If you stay close to your buddy and know how to buddy breathe it's a piece of equipment that's never required! Why don't we point-out those with an octopus 2nd and have a big laugh!?
This is just another example of how technology has supplanted diver training. It's why PADI has made the decision to remove buddy-breathing from its training program for the new diver. Where are the voices of protest here?
When someone suggests having a Spare Air to provide a redundant source of gas to get to the surface, we hear all sorts of comments like technology causing a short-fall in diver training or the diver should be trained to just stay with their buddy. All the while these same sources dive with octopus regulators. WHY? Where is their buddy and their ability to buddy-breathe? An octopus second is carried for convenience; it makes sharing air easier.
We all carry safety equipment, we stay close to our buddy and use proper gas management. That said accidents happen. The experienced diver is not impervious to the cold hand of misfortune.
I haven't heard anyone say that a redundant gas supply is bad. Some use a pony bottle while others choose to use a Spare Air. The major differences here are the overall cost, bulk and the amount of gas supply available to the diver. How much gas a diver requires in an unrestricted no-decompression environment is directly proportional to depth and how you undertake the ascent.
The Pony Bottle has the advantage of more air. This allows the diver to ascend in a similar way as s/he would if their primary gas supply was intact.
A Spare Air provides less gas availability and preferably would be used to aid a free-ascent / CESA by providing the availability of another breath if it was needed (ascend exhaling/humming to the surface). In this manner, both would provide sufficient gas to do a safe ascent from recreational depths. This is the purpose behind the design of both devices. The procedures used in an emergency are however different.
Although the Spare Air does not provide the amount of gas as noted, it has the benefit of weighing 1.5 lbs and is convenient to transport. So the selection is largely left to the individual; like any other piece of diving equipment.
We all carry safety equipment, we stay close to our buddy and use proper gas management. That said accidents happen. The experienced diver is not impervious to the cold hand of misfortune.
I haven't heard anyone say that a redundant gas supply is bad. Some use a pony bottle while others choose to use a Spare Air. The major differences here are the overall cost, bulk and the amount of gas supply available to the diver. How much gas a diver requires in an unrestricted no-decompression environment is directly proportional to depth and how you undertake the ascent.
A Spare Air provides less gas availability and preferably would be used to aid a free-ascent / CESA by providing the availability of another breath if it was needed (ascend exhaling/humming to the surface). In this manner, both would provide sufficient gas to do a safe ascent from recreational depths. This is the purpose behind the design of both devices. The procedures used in an emergency are however different.
Although the Spare Air does not provide the amount of gas as noted, it has the benefit of weighing 1.5 lbs and is convenient to transport. So the selection is largely left to the individual; like any other piece of diving equipment.
Originally Posted by DCBC
As this is in the Basic SCUBA Discussion area, I think that the conversation should focus on the newer diver, who will generally not purchase a second regulator and pony bottle or have another redundant air source available to them.
Given the industry's move away from buddy breathing, a new diver may well find themselves in a different situation than we did when we first started diving. I believe that a new diver today is generally less competent, has less water ability, is given no real rescue skills and is trained to a lower standard than ever before.
A small, relatively inexpensive redundant air source that will give the diver enough air to get to the surface, seems to be something that's positive.
Both of these quotes are reposted for emphasis.
They pretty much say it all and there isn't a member of this board or anywhere else that can effectively dispute them.
The only possible exception might be the old and tired argument that "a diver will be more complacent and reckless and push the limits if s/he has the redundancy".
And that argument is of course flawed on so many levels even though it "might" apply in some cases.
They pretty much say it all and there isn't a member of this board or anywhere else that can effectively dispute them.
If by "effectively" you mean reason you out of a position you didn't reason yourself into, then from my observation of this thread I agree: There isn't a member on this board who is going to be able to "effectively" dispute these statements in whole or in part, or add caveats, or point out other, more nuanced considerations.
And for what it's worth, there are people who disagree with you that also seem to be entrenched in their opinions of SpareAirs and/or pony bottles that probably can't be reasoned out of their stances either.
I've been careful not to adopt a hard stance either way in this thread. What I can say with some certainty is that if I trust you as a buddy when you aren't carrying a SpareAir, I will trust you as a buddy when you are, and the same goes for a pony bottle. I don't automatically think you're a genius or an idiot based on your choices around handling gas problems, and I don't think your arguments are ineffective or tired based on whether they resonate with me or not.
Where can I get an EAN32 Spare Air? I often dive Nitrox and wouldn't want to mix gases if the need were to arise.
There is an entire thread devoted to this question here.
Now for your amusement:
Consider the benefits of a Trimix SpareAir. You are too deep to perform a CESA safely. You obviously have no buddy to assist you. Something goes wrong and you feel like you have no gas. Panic is about to set in. You want to ditch your obviously malfunctioning rig and bolt for the surface. Stop. Relax. Pop the Trimix SpareAir in your mouth and breathe deeply. The first thing you notice is the cobwebs falling away. You begin to think more clearly. Your Nitrogen Narcosis is going away because the Helium in your SpareAir reduces your END. Now you can think about your problem more clearly and decide whether it really is an emergency or something that can be resolved with ease, such as reaching back over your shoulder and turning your valve back on.
Trimix SpareAir: When you absolutely, positively don't want you last breath to be... your last breath. Available in 25/25, 21/35, 18/45, 15/55 and 10/70. Stock up and save: Tech diver's bandolier with all five mixes now 20% off!!!
Our lawyers made us tell you that the Trimix SpareAir is untested and will kill you. If you have never heard of Isobaric Counterdiffusion you have no business buying the Trimix SpareAir. Side effects of performing a CESA assisted with a Trimix SpareAir include but are no limited to stroke, paralysis, numbing sensations, skin rash, and ridicule from the Anti-SpareAir police.
Last edited by Reg Braithwaite; January 31st, 2010 at 05:15 PM.
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