C-card question not trolling

[Savitar]

First off, before you rip into me, as you WILL do, try to be honest for a moment.

Please tell me why a C-card is necessary.

Diving is not that difficult, nor is the physiology, or the high school physics.

It seems, to me, that the driving force behind the C-card is the greed and avarice of the certifying agencies, and the instructors.

It's all too much like an internet pyramid scam.

Without a C-card, the dive shop won't you sell air, (but will sell you expensive tanks and regulators), the dive boat won't let you on, the campground won't let you swim in the spring....

Take this course, that we can provide, then how about another course so that you won't have these imposed limitations, hey after that course and this one you too can give courses, and make big money! Imagine, if you taught ten people you could make ten times the money we took from you!

When I started diving, early '70's, there was not so much greed. Diving shops gave low priced courses in order to enhance the sales of equipment. Most dive shops closed for the winter in New England. Dive shop owners worked at boatyards, fire departments, commercial ventures. There were not as many dive shops/instructors competing for a very small market share.

The only way to survive financially was to create a never ending string of certifications, and sell it through the cooperation of everyone that has the slightest connection to the industry.

There is no legal precedent that requires certification, only forced compliance through an industry seeking monetary gain.

As I said, I have been diving since 1972,and within 2 years I was doing light commercial salvage, inspecting moorings, scrubbing hulls, assisting the local fire dept with search and recovery. I have done several wreck dives, used almost all types diving equipment available.

I'm set up to do surface supply, air and heliox, which includes a Kirby Morgan Superlight 17K and a DESCO air hat, complete with comms and an Outland Technologies video inspection system (Check out the UWS-3010. http://www.outlandtech.com/otisys.htm) I have available 3 AGA and one Neptune full face masks (with comms) for SCUBA, as well as standard DIR configured regulators. Viking dry suit, and several wet suits for different climates. I have a first aid kit that rivals most rescue services, complete with triage, oxygen, burn, and impact injury support. I've dived several historical equipment configurations. And own many unusual pieces.

Several people on this board want to make diving sound like climbing Everest, it's not that difficult. You need to know your limitations, and be in control of your fears and panic. If you read everything available, watch the internet for new info, try things out under controlled conditions, an instructor using a prepared lesson plan seems like a waste of time.

I'm a mechanical engineer and I can't understand why anyone would pay someone to teach them how to use a DPV that they could build in their garage. I'm currently building a low cost ROV for water tank inspection. It's not rocket science.

I hold no certification, and no instructor will acknowledge my past or present achievements toward attaining one, they will however, express interest in diving my gear.

I await your vitriolic criticism, as you must, I have attacked your livelihood, and quite possibly your ego as well.

 

[fins wake]

I guess you can make the argument for diving without a c-card. Remember, though, that when this was the norm (when you started diving and in the decades before) accident rates were far higher than they are now. There are still people who strap on a tank and jump in without any formal training. Not many, though and their accident and fatality rates are disproportionately high.

The whole idea is getting proper training from an instructor according to set standards so the newbie diver can be sure of learning essential skills.

The c-card itself is a 'self-policing' instrument by the dive industry. Without it, there might well have been widespread international legislation by most governments.

The concept seems to be working! DAN and other organizations have reported steadily decreasing or absolutely level accident and fatality statistics for many consecutive years now, despite a formidable explosion of new diver certifications.

 

[Diversauras]

I'll wade in here as I too had many years of diving before getting a card from a recognized agency, the first was from NED down on Water stree in Beverly, MA.

I agree with your comments in general about the basics being simple, however many people wanting to learn to dive may not be as intuative as you, or those who taught themselves. I expect the real answer may be convienience. It is much easier to pay the cost of a course (good or bad) that go through the process of finding all the work arounds for getting gas and on a dive boat, and obviously a boat and a compressor would go a long way toward making you independant.

For me, and I am an instructor for NAUI, I think that the shared experiences of learning with a diverse group of students and benefiting from the experience of the instructors and DMs involved with teaching the class, is what I would tell a potential student were the good reasons for taking a class.

Aside from identifing a person as someone who has had some basic training in SCUBA, I don't suppose there is a reason to have a c-card.

 

[scubasean]

Would you have been allowed to become a Mech. Engineer without a degree?

Why not? How much of your college learning do you actually use? I studied Physics in school, but also studied how scientists tried to train monkeys how to perform sign language...Is the sign language required for me to be a decent physicist?

I claim that there are many self-taught engineers that are much better than many who are formally schooled, but yet the self-taught often have more difficulty getting a job in the industry.

Just thought I'd feed the troll....

(I'm not an instructor, and don't aspire to become one...nor do I play one on TV.)

 

[diverbrian]

You bring up some good points. Many self-taught people in any given profession do quite well.

The C-Cards protect the shops and charters for one thing. After the C-cards started for diving because of the high accident rates (and threatened gov't regulation), the accident rates went down except in one area: Caves. Then the owners of the caves, to avoid liability for inexperienced divers being caught in them started to close off the the caves. Bring in: the start of cave/overhead environment certs. My example to make a point.

The Cards let the dive operator know that the person has a certain level of minimum information to do a certain type of diving safely. A saying that I see on the board that I just LOVE is that:

Many new divers have a clue about what they don't actually know and how limited their experience is.

The problem with diving isn't that it is rocket science. It obviously isn't. It is that if you think that you know what you are doing and are wrong.... a mistake can be fatal. The courses are designed to give you the minimum safe information. That card says that you were presented with it. If you get hurt, the operators can come back and say that they had reason to believe that they weren't letting a diver in "over their head" (pun not intended).

So, yes, there is a good reason for the C-Card. No, if you can learn without it, all the more power to you. But, this is a sport where most people can learn more at all times. The Advanced C-Cards aren't a bad idea.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'm all for people deciding how and where they'll learn.

I also think that with the c-card being manditory we're forcing people who want to dive to pay for training they wouldn't be willing to accept if they weren't required to have the card. Since they must buy it there is not incentive to keep the quality up.

Get rid of the c-cards and then you'll need to convince some one there's real value in the training you're selling.

 

[Walter]

It doesn't matter because the system isn't likely to change. Training isn't likely to improve. If anything, it's likely to get worse. I don't agree that the original idea was to make money, the 1st certification agencies were all non profit. The original idea was to help people dive safely. Many still teach with that goal in mind. I'm not sure that is still the driving force in much of the industry. If it is, they aren't showing it by their actions.

 

[zeN||]

GreaT Post Savitar,
The previous generation of divers laugh with derision when you bring up c cards, I've met ex navy seals that still don't have a c card. I hope all the Libertarian oriented divers make a post here, we don't need no stinking c cards!
One can always hire instruction if you CHOOSE, this attitude that has pervaded our culture that we must be required, certified, regulated, blah blah blah is turning everyone into cloned monkeys that can't think for themselves, except to parrot the party line zeN||

 

[Epinephelus]

In an ideal world everyone would accept responsibility for their own actions. Training would be a natural shortcut to improved performance and to accident prevention. C-cards and liability insurance wouldn't exist.
In the real world, however, there are lawyers...
E.

 

[WJL]

The original training agencies, like LA County and the YMCA, created scuba training programs to teach people how to dive safely. As Walter said, these were non-profit organizations, whose motivation was to promote safety. They issued cards to divers who completed the courses, and the cards became a means of distinguishing divers who probably had a clue from the general population of divers, some of whom were skilled and some of whom weren't.

Certain people like collecting a set of achievement certificates. You see it everywhere. It's not good or bad, it's just the way some people are. When I was in the Boy Scouts, a few people really liked collecting the merit badges. Others just liked to go camping. The merit badge collectors usually weren't better woodsmen than the ones only interested in camping, even though they had plenty of merit badges that would indicate otherwise.

I suppose scuba c-cards are like merit badges. Having one doesn't mean you're a btter diver than someone else without one, but it does show that you went through prescribed training and testing to get it. Not having a card doesn't make you a poorer diver. All the card really does is give a dive shop or charter operator a type of objective information that the diver standing in front of them at least has had some sort of training.