Nerdy Certification/Experience Question, but still curious...

[JTH2711]

My LDS will not rent you any gear and the local quarry I got certified at will not allow you to dive if you have not logged a dive in 4-5 years without the completing a refresher course. I don't know how it is for everyone else, but I can respect that policy.

[TSandM]

This question comes up frequently regarding technical certifications. One of the problems with having a recency or frequency requirement for continuing certification is that there is no way to verify the information that someone submits.

What's more relevant is that boats and dive centers be proactive about assuring a level of skill in their divers, and some are. I know in Roatan, a friend of mine had to do a checkout dive before he was allowed to go out on a boat. And my cave instructor had to demonstrate FIN PIVOTS (true story) before he was allowed to dive with an operator in Australia.

[diver_doug]

Recertification would totally suck for people who don't have huge lapses in diving. Imagine getting certified for ow, aow, rescue diver, cave diving etc., diving regularly, and then several years down the road having to shell out thousands of dollars to get recertified for no good reason. Granted maybe we could say that a person is required to get recertified if they have a lapse of, say, 5 or more years. But virtually no one is going to want to spend all that money on recertification so they'll just end up lying or forging dive logs. Lifetime certification isn't perfect, but I think it's better than the alternatives.

[Leejnd]

Recertification would totally suck for people who don't have huge lapses in diving. Imagine getting certified for ow, aow, rescue diver, cave diving etc., diving regularly, and then several years down the road having to shell out thousands of dollars to get recertified for no good reason. Granted maybe we could say that a person is required to get recertified if they have a lapse of, say, 5 or more years. But virtually no one is going to want to spend all that money on recertification so they'll just end up lying or forging dive logs. Lifetime certification isn't perfect, but I think it's better than the alternatives.

I think this post most succinctly states the problems with the concept of recertification, whether it's based on time, or last-time-diving:

Time based recerts: Frequent/advanced divers having to pay money to demonstrate basic skills that they use all the time anyway.

-- or --

Last-time-diving recerts: Infrequent divers falsifying their dive logs to make it appear they've dived recently, and no way to confirm veracity.

Neither way would work.

[fnfalman]

Divers should be smart enough to know their limitations. If they don't, or don't care enough to find out...oh well.

Can't be the PADI Police to everybody and their brothers & sisters.

I'm a pretty new diver. Just certified this year. I have a question you've probably all already heard before, but I am still curious. Indulge me. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the sport.

It seems to me there is an inherent safety flaw with non-expiring, lifetime certifications. Here's what I am saying. I'll give an example. Right now I am just O/W certified. But if I were to go through a "diving phase" right now, I could have advanced certifications... AOW, deep diver, wreck, etc... maybe more than that... in just a few months' time.

So let's say I get bored with diving. I don't dive for 4 or 5 years, but all the sudden I decide to pick it back up. I'm still certified at all those advanced levels, and hypothetically would be cleared to go on a 90-foot wreck dive even though I've been out of practice for years. Right?

Isn't that unsafe? Do dive operators typically do more investigation into a customer's dive history when the dive is more advanced, or do most of them just look at cert cards a clear a person to go on the dive? Wouldn't it make more sense for agencies to require re-certification every [x] number of years?

Mainly, I am curious to hear from divemasters, instructors, charter operators, professional divers. Also, another somewhat-related question. Instructors: if someone was OW certified 10 years ago, and hasn't dove once since the certification, and they all the sudden come to you wanting to take an AOW class, what do you do? Can you (or WOULD YOU) refuse to teach them the class?

Sorry if these seem like dumb questions. Just curious. Mainly, I am trying to get a better understanding of how dive pros separate the experienced divers from the inexperienced ones, aside from looking at certifications.

[rk288]

hmm, after years I would first want my gear to have the routine annual maintenance that I already do. Would probably need to review my log book for how much weight do I need with which wet suit.
The first time I took a break from diving it was October to April, about 6 months time. I was a little nervous...going from OW + 2 advanced dives in the northeast to AOW cert course in the Caribbean. Once I got in the water I think I recall it was about 2 puffs on my reg and 8 ft of water over my head when I remembered how much I love doing this...
To me I guess it's like riding a bike or skiing...I am a bit cautious at both, especially the first day of skiing which I did professionally years ago...

[kombiguy]

My pilot's license is good for life or until revoked, suspended or returned willingly, so is my A&P, of course these are covered by federal law and log books or other recent proof of experience is required, scuba diving is not a regulated activity largely and it falls under the right to pursue happiness and personal choice.

N

Close. Pilot's requirements like currency are federal regulations, not law. Scuba diving is unregulated, but there is no "right to pursue happiness" that it falls under. It is unregulated because the feds haven't figured out a reason or way to do it, yet.

[eponym]

Do dive operators typically do more investigation into a customer's dive history when the dive is more advanced, or do most of them just look at cert cards and clear a person to go on the dive? Wouldn't it make more sense for agencies to require re-certification every [x] number of years?

Mainly, I am curious to hear from divemasters, instructors, charter operators, professional divers. Also, another somewhat-related question. Instructors: if someone was OW certified 10 years ago, and hasn't dove once since the certification, and they all the sudden come to you wanting to take an AOW class, what do you do? Can you (or WOULD YOU) refuse to teach them the class?

Sorry if these seem like dumb questions. Just curious. Mainly, I am trying to get a better understanding of how dive pros separate the experienced divers from the inexperienced ones, aside from looking at certifications.

Good questions, and good answers so far. I know from experience (mine and friends') that more and more operators around the world want to see evidence (log pages) of recent diving or else they'll ask you to do a checkout dive to assess your skills--or even ask you to do a pool session (a Sandals resort)! My favorite charter boar for wreck dives in San Diego wants to see proof of some minimum number of deep and cold-water dives before allowing you to book with them. On the other hand I've shown up for cold-water boat dives in the Pacific Northwest and never been asked for a c-card. Sometimes it's all about how you look and act, I guess.

From my perspective (teaching basic open water through assistant instructor) if I meet a student I've never worked with who wants to take something like the deep or night diving specialty I'll ask to see them in the pool or local lake first, to verify they have the basic skills down. I've had a couple of students get discombobulated on deep or dark dives and I don't ever want to work that hard to get someone safely to the surface.

You're not the first to suggest periodic re-certification. I don't see it coming to pass any time soon. One of the beauties of US diving is self-regulation and I don't think the principal players would buy into it. As it was from the start, diving is knowing your comfort zone, your limits, your capabilities, your motivations.

It's an inner game.

-Bryan

[Walter]

It seems to me there is an inherent safety flaw with non-expiring, lifetime certifications. Here's what I am saying. I'll give an example. Right now I am just O/W certified. But if I were to go through a "diving phase" right now, I could have advanced certifications... AOW, deep diver, wreck, etc... maybe more than that... in just a few months' time.

So let's say I get bored with diving. I don't dive for 4 or 5 years, but all the sudden I decide to pick it back up. I'm still certified at all those advanced levels, and hypothetically would be cleared to go on a 90-foot wreck dive even though I've been out of practice for years. Right?

Isn't that unsafe?

That is unsafe. On the other hand, you recognize it is unsafe so you won't do it. If you do it anyway, you are well aware of the risk and I have no issue with letting you assume any risk you want. I fail to see the problem.

Do dive operators typically do more investigation into a customer's dive history when the dive is more advanced, or do most of them just look at cert cards a clear a person to go on the dive?

Different operators handle it differently. Most will check your c-card. Some will also ask you when you last dived to X depth. Some will want you to fill out a form with info about your diving history. Some will want to see a log book.

Wouldn't it make more sense for agencies to require re-certification every [x] number of years?

No.

Instructors: if someone was OW certified 10 years ago, and hasn't dove once since the certification, and they all the sudden come to you wanting to take an AOW class, what do you do? Can you (or WOULD YOU) refuse to teach them the class?

I would be happy to teach them. I like to get my advanced students in the pool anyway, so I would be looking at their skills. Depending on their ability I may go over material from my OW class.

Mainly, I am trying to get a better understanding of how dive pros separate the experienced divers from the inexperienced ones, aside from looking at certifications.

Different people handle it differently. I can usually get an excellent idea about a diver from talking with them about diving.