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Thread: Yoke and DIN on doubles?

 


  1. #11
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    Bubbletrubble's Avatar
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    I think you're enthusiasm for the sport is somewhat misplaced.

    You have less than 25 lifetime dives.
    As a beginner diver, why are you itching to buy a doubles setup?
    Slow down. Commit to doing a lot of dives outside of formal classes.
    When you need to dive doubles, buy the necessary equipment.
    Ear Equalization problems? Check out Dr. Kay's Ear Lecture for Divers.

    What would you do? ScubaBoard has a "What if...?" series geared for beginner divers.

  2. #12
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    True, when I cant dive I browse the web and wish I could(: I think it came accross wrong from my side as well, I have no intention of getting this setup any time soon, maybe in a few years, its just that ice diving and tech stuff like this have always interested me and I was curious for the sake of informing myself should I be able to get them in a few years. Thanks anyhow and sorry if it came accross like you took it
    Looking for dive buddies in the Twin Cities, MN!

  3. #13
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    Yes you can have yoke regs on a twin set up. Whether or not that is a good idea is another story. Personally I would only buy DIN regs now (my singles reg is a yoke but not my doubles regs or my stage regs).

    If you are getting into tech diving, the cost of converting your yoke reg to DIN reg is a drop in the ocean so if that is a problem for you, tech diving probably is not affordable at this stage for you.

    What is the technical diving you have available to you in Minnesota? Wondering why you are interested in AL80s? If you are picking everything based on price to the exclusion of other factors, this is not the right approach (though of course price is factor, just lower down the list).

    Good luck with your gear.
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    I love curious minds! It's just fine to be thinking about this now, but it IS a ways off . . .

    The reason for having two regulators for ice diving is that diving in very cold water has a real risk of regulator freeflow You don't necessarily have to have double tanks; you can use an H or Y valve, or carry a pony bottle with a separate regulator. What's important is having two completely separate first and second stages, so if one first stage freezes, you can shut it off and use the other one.

    Although I understand your position that you don't need Intro to Tech to dive doubles (and you don't), I do think it's probably a good idea to take a class in ice diving, or get mentored by people with a lot of experience in doing it. It's overhead diving, which is never to be taken lightly, and overhead diving in rather extreme water conditions. Even pretty well trained people can get into trouble doing it, so if I were you, I'd really go get some advice from someone who knows this kind of diving well.

    But on to doubles . . . You CAN put yoke regs on a set of doubles, and clearly, the photograph of the ScubaToys manifold shows yoke valves. Most people diving doubles are diving in places where there's a strong desire to reduce risk, and that's why most manifolds have DIN attachments. As pointed out already, it's much harder to knock a DIN reg off a valve than a yoke -- and since you are planning on diving with a hard overhead, this might be something to consider. The last thing you need is to have a 1st stage freeze, blow out into your BC, send you to the ice overhead and then knock your reg off your manifold. That would put a pucker in things!

    200 bar versus 300 bar is more of a theoretical concern than a real one. It has to do with the number of threads in the valve orifice -- 300 bar valves are deeper (require more turns of the reg to get it to seat) than 200 bar. Both will hold the pressure in aluminum 80s, and far more. 300 bar valves are a PITA, and I mutter evil spells against mine on a regular basis. (It's just easy to cross-thread them, and you have to turn and turn and turn to get them seated.)

    Aluminum tanks may not be a horrible choice for what you want to do, since it will likely be in fresh water. Double Al80s with bands and manifold are just about neutral, so although you will have to carry more weight than you would if you were diving steels, it's not as awful as a single aluminum tank, which needs four or five pounds to sink the tank alone. They are also inexpensive starter tanks, and can be broken up and used as stages or deco bottles, if you go on to that sort of diving.

    You should understand that an isolation manifold provides a constant connection between the two tanks at all times, unless the isolator valve is closed. When shops fill tanks, they attack the fill whip to one side of the manifold and fill from there. Pressure in the two tanks will be the same. It is not advisable to try to double up mismatched tanks, as they need to be the same diameter and length to work (in fact, it's sometimes difficult to double up the same size and brand of tank from different batches).

    Executive summary: Go with DIN, either 200 or 300 bar will do, aluminum 80s are fine in fresh water, and if you are going to ice dive, get some training.
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  5. #15
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    mndiv I lived in Michigan for a long time and dove all my ice dives with a yoke, thousands of great lakes wreck dives on a yoke, they are safe and reliable. Today I dive both, Din you need to clean more to keep build up out of manifold and on 1st stage. The reason you should get steel tanks is it is a small weightbelt with the weight in the tanks and easier to carry, not a huge issue but a good one and 2nd is to have more cf of gas in the tanks, which is better to have under ice and wreck diving.

    Most of your freeze up is if you breathe off of reg before you submerge(usually make that mistake once cause now you can not dive and its cold to try to resolve the problem)and in open water you learn how to breathe from a free flow, under ice you turn valve off and turn on when you need a breath. No mater what you have underwater it could freeze on you, with the right gear it will be fine and safe as you learn.

    Sas at the west side of Lake Superior is Minnesota, there is a shore dive of a freighter there, and just north are some mines in superior that are great dives and in same area is charter boats to Isle Royal which has several wrecks there, the easiest diving in the greatlakes due to close to shore and wrecks are shallow to deep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mndiv View Post
    why does that call for DIN? I know that it is preffered among the tech community for allowing higher pressures, but what exactly is the difference when ice diving?
    The specific technical reasons have been addressed, but a number of people prefer to go DIN just because they are a bit more secure. I know, that sounds almost condescending, and that is not the intent. My first reg as a newbie diver was DIN, virtually all my regs (except for a used pool reg and a used reg I put on my drysuit inflator bottle) now are DIN, and I just feel they are a bit more secure in any environment. In reality, though either DIN or yoke will work well, and if you have convertible valves, you will have the option, even to mix first stages (one DIN, one yoke).
    Quote Originally Posted by Mndiv View Post
    So are doubles DIN? Would I be fine mounting two yoke first stages on a set of AL80 doubles
    We had a tech student complete the PADI Tech Deep course last year, diving double AL80s, with yoke regs - because that is what he had. Worked fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mndiv View Post
    Not a bad price for a new set, except the shipping would be a bit of a bear. One of my favorite sets of BM doubles for freshwater, drysuit diving is an older set of AL80s. Not too heavy, great trim, enough gas for long, fun NDL dives, etc. I also use them for coastal wetsuit recreational diving.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mndiv View Post
    Sidemount would be getting techy, and this is why for me simply doubles seems logical, especially considering I would like to get into ice diving.
    I think a reasonable case could be made that SM doubles are actually less 'techy' than BM doubles. But, that would take the thread off in a different direction. Instead, I would encourage you to not totally discount SM as too much of a tech option.
    Quote Originally Posted by TS&M
    Executive summary: Go with DIN, either 200 or 300 bar will do, aluminum 80s are fine in fresh water, and if you are going to ice dive, get some training.
    Ditto! Well said, Lynne.

    Now, a bit of heresy - there is nothing wrong with thinking about doubles early on. I fully agree that a lot of valuable, enjoyable, developmental diving can (and should) be done with a single tank. (I thoroughly enjoy training / practicing in single tanks, as well as doubles.) But, for some people, part of the excitement about diving is the gear itself. When I had 25 dives, I was already thinking about where I could try out a rebreather (never did, by the way), just because the idea seemed interesting. Several, more experienced divers told me I shouldn't be thinking about that so early, and pointed out all the dangers. Now, PADI has an option for doing initial OW training in a rebreather. With any gear configuration, the critical element is to learn how to use it properly, and that does NOT mean you will be expert the first time you use it, even if you take a class. My first drysuit dive was #31, and I certainly had not mastered wetsuit buoyancy and trim by then, so much of my B & T development was done in a drysuit. My first BM doubles dive was ~#190. I set the doubles up myself, with a little LDS advice, and went off to the local quarry. These comments are not meant to suggest in any way that a cavalier attitude is appropriate when trying new / different gear configurations. Rather, 1) there is nothing wrong with dreaming, exploring, inquring, testing, early in your diving and 2) there are many ways of learning (I really applaud saxplayer's comment about mentoring) beyond formal classes. My dive buddy / fellow instructor and I are taking a younger acquaintance out for his first doubles diving this Sunday (and loaning him a set of BM double 100s and regs). In this case, we have a bit of experience diving with him, so we know his skill level. But, he is well below 100 lifetime dives, and has been thinking about doubles for some time.

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    Another thing to think about regarding the manifold is the 200bar vs 300bar. The 200bar manifolds usually come with plugs to use with a yoke regulator and have a dimple in the back for seating the yoke screw. 300bar manifolds do not. The 300bar manifold outlets can either be angled up at about 45 degrees, or horizontal with no dimple in the back for the yoke screw to seat in. This is to prevent someone from accidentally or intentionally using a yoke regulator on a dedicated high pressure tank.
    You can use either yoke or DIN on 200bar manifolds, but only DIN on 300bar manifolds.
    Personally, I like 200bar manifolds.

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    Thank you Colliam7 that is exactly how I feel. I have gathered a lot of information, and one of the reasons I started being intrigued by doubles was because Ice diving is common in my area and is something I know I would like to get into. Therefore as I cant dive right now I just sorta started researching.. Realistically the earliest I would shoot for to get doubles would be early 2014 or so.

    One thing I want to make clear, is that I do not intend on trying any of this (ice diving, wreck diving, deep diving, etc.) without proper training through PADI in my case. I am aware of how dangerous it would be to not take this approach.

    Judging by this 200 bar seems to be the best, and yeah I guess shipping would add a chunk to the listed price, but no way around that one(: In regard to double and a BPW setup I believe I will be comfortable setting that up myself with some advice and gain expirience by diving with some seasoned buddies, so I dont think training will be necessary in that regard, same with what Colliam7 said.

    Thanks, I can tell you that I know a lot more about this topic then when I made this post, thanks to all your advice.. Thanks!
    Looking for dive buddies in the Twin Cities, MN!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mndiv View Post
    Thank you Colliam7 that is exactly how I feel. I have gathered a lot of information, and one of the reasons I started being intrigued by doubles was because Ice diving is common in my area and is something I know I would like to get into. Therefore as I cant dive right now I just sorta started researching.. Realistically the earliest I would shoot for to get doubles would be early 2014 or so.

    One thing I want to make clear, is that I do not intend on trying any of this (ice diving, wreck diving, deep diving, etc.) without proper training through PADI in my case. I am aware of how dangerous it would be to not take this approach.

    Judging by this 200 bar seems to be the best, and yeah I guess shipping would add a chunk to the listed price, but no way around that one(: In regard to double and a BPW setup I believe I will be comfortable setting that up myself with some advice and gain expirience by diving with some seasoned buddies, so I dont think training will be necessary in that regard, same with what Colliam7 said.

    Thanks, I can tell you that I know a lot more about this topic then when I made this post, thanks to all your advice.. Thanks!
    Hey Mndiv, nice to see another Minnesotan on SB. Just thought I would add that you can easily find used tanks in the Twin Cities. I've picked up several (some older LP72's) in the past few months. Also, ScubaToys.com offers free shipping on orders over $50, so those doubles should likely ship free. You can also post in their forum to get a discount of about 10%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boardndave View Post
    Also, ScubaToys.com offers free shipping on orders over $50, so those doubles should likely ship free. You can also post in their forum to get a discount of about 10%.
    Thanks! Do they automatically subtract that from the cost or do you have to somehow let them know? That and the shipping thing would certainly be a good deal!(:

    Once again thanks, also nice to see some divers from the same area on Scuba Board!
    Looking for dive buddies in the Twin Cities, MN!

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