Bitterness of Scuba Instructors

[katepnatl]

Yes, I'm beginning to get the message now.

When I first started pointing out the rudeness trend of SB there were at least as many people agreeing with me as disagreeing with me. But lately I'm getting a lot more disagreement on the subject, and now people are telling me I may not belong here.

Which is the same as saying that I'm not wanted here.

And if I did continue to participate in a forum where I'm not wanted, I really would be a troll (as several have called me).

And frankly, being criticized (now by 2 posters) for standing up for the wife who's being yelled at by the husband--well, I think you're right, I really don't belong here.

Where did anyone criticize you for "standing up for the wife"? Go back and read through the past what, ten, posts? No one criticized you for standing up for the wife.

Matt, in truth, this is an example of what I am talking about (not understanding why you are upset). IIRC off the top of my head, I said I thought it was a bad analogy, a few others said something to the effect of they probably wouldn't actually do what you said you would do, and some others went so far as to agree with what you said you said you would do, but discount it as an analogy for the situation being discussed. No where in any of that did anyone criticize you "for standing up for the wife being yelled at by the husband" - that is all your perception.

EDIT: Please see my next post for further comment. When my edit got more than twice as long as my original post I figured I should just make a new response.

[vladimir]

Yes, I'm beginning to get the message now....and now people are telling me I may not belong here.

Which is the same as saying that I'm not wanted here.

This logic is less than rigorous, but never mind.

well, I think you're right, I really don't belong here.

When you find (or create, as you suggest) the scuba forum that is uniformly polite and welcoming, please come back for one more post and clue us in. This board has had other disgruntled defectors, so you may want to start with their efforts: THE DIVE MATRIX is quite good, in my opinion, with quite a bit of overlap in membership, but it never really developed the critical mass for sustained conversation. Which I guess is the problem when you take a relatively small community (scuba divers) and pare it further. Good luck though.

[katepnatl]

Yes, I'm beginning to get the message now.

When I first started pointing out the rudeness trend of SB there were at least as many people agreeing with me as disagreeing with me. But lately I'm getting a lot more disagreement on the subject, and now people are telling me I may not belong here.

Which is the same as saying that I'm not wanted here.

And if I did continue to participate in a forum where I'm not wanted, I really would be a troll (as several have called me).

And frankly, being criticized (now by 2 posters) for standing up for the wife who's being yelled at by the husband--well, I think you're right, I really don't belong here.

This was originally an edit to my previous post but it quite grew so I decided to make it it's own post. Anyhow... Matt, regarding you not being wanted here:

My prior posts were focused on what perplexed me, and I stand by everything I wrote. HOWEVER - none of what I wrote was intended, nor should be taken, from my perspective at least, as indicating that I don't want you on SB. And I imagine most of the others that are in any way questioning you would agree. (Even if they didn't, who cares? We can't control everyone else opinions) Anyway, what I feel that BluewaterSail, Mantra, Ferris213, buddasummer and others have done in the past few pages (since I actively joined the conversation) is explain the benefits of the "bending" that I referred to an earlier post.

I have this feeling that you might argue that "bending" would mean you weren't being true to yourself (forgive me if I am assuming incorrectly). Here is an example of "bending" to cultural mores: I wear different clothes out to a club than I do to work, than I do to a dive site. I'm still being myself - I'm generally a little more casual than others at the club (not as into heels as I used to be!), I don't usually wear makeup (and yes that is a statement at my age!) and I like to have purple somewhere on my divegear. But the clothing is appropriate for the environment - I'm not wearing my TLS350 to work nor am I wearing my Talbots to the club. That may be kind of a silly example to you but I'm really trying!!!! So on SB it's about getting a feel for the mores of the board, and also - importantly - realizing that sometimes it's not about it me - it's about the other person - and I don't need to stress about changing them.

And to further clarify - I am personally not insensitive. TSandM could tell you a story or two about my unfortunate excess of sensitivity at times . Further, anyone who has met me in person knows that I believe strongly in my convictions - I have been described as "passionate" by friends, "intense" by acquaintances, and other less euphemistic adjectives by people less inclined to be magnanimous. Yet I've managed to find equilibrium here. So I believe that you can too. And I hope that you can see past YOUR concerns to look for your place here because there is one for you if you can find it.

[Mantra]

Firstly, if you don't know the tvtropes web site, you didn't hear about it from me. If you lose a day of your life visiting it, I'm not to blame.


Anyhoo, perhaps we can recognise one or more of the participants in this thread in this handy list of online personas:


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlinePersonas

It is thought that these persona types appear because of the disinhibitory effect of online interaction - people become more open to others, more likely to express emotion (including being hurt), more rude etc than in real life. AKA GIFT, the greater Internet f**kwad theory:


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT

The point being, this stuff is all pretty bog standard for an Internet forum. With one important difference: Scubaboard is lucky to have more than its fair share of shepherds:


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheShepherd
Keep doing what you do, all. Hooroo! (that's an Aussie goodnight)

[NetDoc]

Yes, I'm beginning to get the message now.

Matt, the message I am sending you is one of inclusion. We embrace all Scuba Divers. They young, old, experienced, the not so much, the nice, the not so nice, the eloquent and the almost illiterate. I hope you get the picture. With over 200,000 registered users, there is going to be some disagreement, even about things as obvious as spousal abuse. There are even a few denizens that are worthy of the ignore function and there are certainly times when you should hit the report button rather than wrestle a pig. Remember: Never try to reason with an unreasonable person. It won't go well and becomes tiresome as well as counter productive. IOW, choose your fights, er discussions, and report the rest.

Let's face it, boorish people almost always have an excuse for their behavior with the silliest one being "It's just me!" When it comes to inappropriate behavior, they can be incredibly unreasonable. That's the time to report them rather than engage them. There are several great reasons to do this, and I am going to list just a few...

• Keeps the thread "On Topic". No need to silt up a thread with a sideline discussion about behavior.
• Gives the Mods something to do. Think of them as the "SBCSI"... you report a problematic post and they will investigate. You don't have to go through the hassle, because they will.
• Nips acrimony in the bud. There's a tendency for personal battles to escalate on the internet. Reporting circumvents that.
• It's anonymous. Only the mods know who reported what, and we keep it that way.
• It's effective! We have mods around the world waiting to assist you. We're even in the process of adding some more.
• It's balanced. Mods won't have the same jaundiced view point. They'll look at things in an unbiased way. Quite often, people take offence when none was intended.

[Jim Lapenta]

I have made it a point to to stay out of a number of these threads after effectively getting asked to stop being me. And before someone gets their panties in a twist it's the way I see it, just as some see what I say in ways that were not intended as personal attacks as being so. It's a matter of perception.

This happens to be mine this morning.

Some newcomers would not see anything different in my postings now and those from say 3, 4, or 5 years ago. Except that I have become significantly mellowed in many areas but not in areas where safety and training are concerned. And even in those I've toned it down more than a few notches.

I'd like the people who have a problem with my views to do what I have done over the years. Things like researching diver fatalities to try and find where things went wrong so that I can avoid them in my own classes.

Look at autopsy reports and talk to eye witnesses who are still feeling the effects of what they saw when a diver died. Or have during this research a non diver call me from Chicago to relate to me what they saw after two ordinary divers pulled a dead diver from the water and watch the EMT's do their job.

And ask me why it happened and why did the deceased's loved one not see what was happening and assist. And tell me how they see that scene over and over in their mind and it's why they will never try it themselves.

Then ask me if divers aren't supposed to dive with a buddy who knows where they are at all times? Well, yes they are but sometimes the buddy system, asI found out, is too often talked about in training but not really put into practice.

And where in more than a few cases basic training items were not followed and people died. Then talk to the survivors and find out that certain items of information were mentioned but not reinforced, glossed over, or not covered at all. Statements made on the order of, "well this can happen but you'll be with a DM so don't worry about it", "no need to spend alot of time on that because you're not doing deep dives", or "you need to take the rescue class to learn how to do that, new divers don't need to worry about it because the DM will be there", and the worst -"this is a safe sport that everyone can do with just a minimum of training".

And yet still people die.

And as I have stated in my book and on numerous times other places, My late wife made me promise to never let a diver I trained get in the water unprepared. And when I train someone to make sure they understand in very clear terms what can happen to them if they screw up, forget a point of information, or elect to disregard something. And I have done that in all of my classes.

They are fun and I am not a slave driver. Anyone will tell you that. But I also am very serious and pull no punches when describing what screwing up can mean. And I am not above pulling out the figurative 2 x 4 to get their attention when I feel it's needed. And based on the feedback I get when I use the same tone here as I do in my classes it is not taken as an attack, but as a genuine concern for the things I see. Things that set off my warning bells when it comes to people not having the info they should. When seemingly minor items are noted as missing or not so minor items appear to not have been covered I get passionate. I guess it's my hot Italian/Scilian blood as my family calls it.

The more PC term I guess is my passion for certain subjects. A passion that I feel I have had to keep in check for the past week or so.

I'm glad that I am not going to be able to spend much time here this weekend. I have a presentation to do at a show in Ohio on Diver Communication, that based on my past ones at this show will likely be very well received. It will also likely generate some controversy and piss some people off. I can't help that. But it will get them thinking. It will point out deficiencies in training that result in communication breakdowns, lack of effective communication, or no communication at all.

And based on past experience it will likely have an instructor or two ask me why I am telling new divers this stuff because:
1. New divers don't need it
2. It's not in the book
3. It's not in their standards to teach
4. They don't have time to teach it
5. That's tech BS talk
6. Students call them on it and they have to explain why they don't go over that
7. You're making me look bad

At one time or another I have heard all of these noted after a talk I've given. Yet at the same time as a result I have heard
1. I wish I had you as my instructor!
2. Will you travel to teach.
3. Can I email you with more questions?
4. We want you to train our kids.
5. I think I need to take a class from you.
6. Learning that would have saved me money, time, effort, etc..
7. Do you accept out of town students?
8. When is your next talk?

Which responses do you think mean the most to me?

[NWGratefulDiver]

Coming to a board this big and asking everybody to fall into some uniform pattern of behavior is like going to the beach and asking everybody to stop tracking sand all over the place. It ain't gonna happen.

Frankly I still don't see the problem being as widespread as Matt makes it out to be. We have a few chronic troublemakers here, the staff generally does a pretty good job of keeping them on a short leash. Lots of us have different ways of expressing ourselves ... and for the most part even those who tend to do so strongly can't realistically be accused of rudeness ... particularly once you've been here long enough to read the intent behind the words. And the vast majority here are really nice, try to be helpful, and generally are pretty welcoming.

It's a society ... and like any society it comes with a variety of personalities. Personally, I don't think it's fair to ask everybody to change just to accommodate one person's sensitivities ... particularly when those sensitivities have demonstrated a proclivity to blame the majority for the actions of a few. It's just not right.

To get to Matt's analogy ... I know this married couple that tends to bicker a lot. I used to worry about them, because it appeared to me that they were always fighting. But over time, I came to realize that they've been like that for a lot of years ... it's just how they get along. Now that I've known them a while, I don't take it the same way I used to. It doesn't bother me anymore. Most times I don't even notice.

Matt, I think rather than leaving, what you need to do is stick around and get to know folks. We're mostly pretty nice people once you get to know us. And, personally, I think you'll fit right in.

It's up to you ... but I do think it's only fair to ask you to accept us for who we are, rather than asking us to change to suit your standards ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[NWGratefulDiver]

I have a presentation to do at a show in Ohio on Diver Communication, that based on my past ones at this show will likely be very well received. It will also likely generate some controversy and piss some people off. I can't help that. But it will get them thinking. It will point out deficiencies in training that result in communication breakdowns, lack of effective communication, or no communication at all.

And based on past experience it will likely have an instructor or two ask me why I am telling new divers this stuff because:
1. New divers don't need it
2. It's not in the book
3. It's not in their standards to teach
4. They don't have time to teach it
5. That's tech BS talk
6. Students call them on it and they have to explain why they don't go over that
7. You're making me look bad

At one time or another I have heard all of these noted after a talk I've given. Yet at the same time as a result I have heard
1. I wish I had you as my instructor!
2. Will you travel to teach.
3. Can I email you with more questions?
4. We want you to train our kids.
5. I think I need to take a class from you.
6. Learning that would have saved me money, time, effort, etc..
7. Do you accept out of town students?
8. When is your next talk?

Which responses do you think mean the most to me?

... I've gotten pretty much the same spectrum of responses to my Gas Management seminar ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Doppler]

... I've gotten pretty much the same spectrum of responses to my Gas Management seminar ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yep, me too.

And to get back to generalities, since that is really the direction in which Matt's original post pointed, I do have a suggestion for "new-comers."


Reading between the lines, perhaps some of the frustration shown towards folks posting "newbie" questions is that these have been answered time and time again -- can I dive with contact lenses? sort of stuff. And sometimes and with some people this engenders a sort of "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION BEFORE POSTING" response. Sometimes and with some people, this suggestion is not well articulated, and they come across as "bitter."


SOOOOOOO, a couple of suggestions:

First and foremost: READ. Go back over past postings, look at active threads and READ... get a feel for the forum. This one is different to Dive Matrix, different to The Deco Stop, different to Scuba Toys, et al.

Join in when you have something to add that is relevant and which provides insight, help etc.

Start off posting in the areas that are fun, get to know you areas.

Before posting a question, search the database to see if it has already been answered.
If it has, re-frame your question based on what you learned from previous postings. For example: "I read that I can dive with soft contact lenses, but my specific concern is...."

If it has not been asked before, congratulations!

There are thousands of members here... some of them are really helpful and some are not... make sure your postings and your onLine persona falls into the category you wish it to fall into.


Just my take on it.

[Nosnhoj]

Based on reading Matt's very first post to scubaboard - who didn't' see this coming?

"One of the other instructors made fun of me for not understanding this right away. This is just another example of the instructors not seeing things from the point of view of a neophyte."

Anyhow, if i might chime in here (not enough experience to add much to scuba related posts yet... but this thread is all just 'opinion' - and i can do that!). I think if you ask a loaded question, you had better be prepared for the response. Bitterness? maybe, knowledgeable?, absolutely! I for one don't mind sifting through the bitterness to gain a bit of knowledge.

Matt, I get a kick out of your posts, and I think if you can get past your bitterness towards instructors, I'll be taking some knowledge away from your posts one day.

But that's just my 2 cents...