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Thread: A somewhat sad conversation last night

 


  1. #651
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    Fish-R-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PfcAJ View Post
    I don't think anyone should be completely reliant on other in the water, that would be foolhardy. But having someone else (who is competent and capable) there to assist in event of a problem can make a load of difference.
    I totally agree with this statement. Diving with a competent partner in most situations does make diving safer and more enjoyable. Would you have put yourself into that same situation with a different partner as long as he had a certain level of training without knowing he was competent and capable? I know that I would not.

    My thoughts are that team training can be an asset as you stated. But depending on the individuals that make up that team, it may end up being a liability......
    "If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month". - Theodore Roosevelt

  2. #652
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    waiting for the next dive.
     

    Thalassamania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PfcAJ View Post
    GUE training certainly teaches you how to solve problems on your own, and the equipment gives you all the tools (and then some) to mitigate most any issue to a point of survivability (get back to the surface). The team emphasis means you don't have to do it all by yourself every single time a minor (or major) issue crops up. In my view, I look at the team as an asset. Something added to my toolbox that I wouldn't already have. I can solve most any realistic problem without assistance, but the team makes it much easier to deal with things.

    I'll tell ya a story from the same dive I did about a week ago. We were on a rather complex multistage cave dive in a very silty place. The reg on a stage bottle got snagged on the line in a low section of the cave. I was able to quickly unwrap the line from it and we were off in less than 10 seconds. Without the team aspect, fixing the problem would have taken more time (deco clock is ticking...tick tock, as is your finite gas supply) and potentially reduced the vis a bunch. Could my buddy have dealt with it? Of course he could have, but I was there to take a little of the stress off him and keep things moving smoothly. This was just a very minor problem hardly worth even mentioning because it quickly became nullified within seconds. I've experienced countless little issues (and a few larger ones) and each and every time, I've found having someone there helped rather than hurt.

    I don't think anyone should be completely reliant on other in the water, that would be foolhardy. But having someone else (who is competent and capable) there to assist in event of a problem can make a load of difference.
    I don't see that as "team." I see it as competent diving combined with good situational awareness. "Team" stuff, to me, are those skills that either require two or more people to work together or that are what we refer to as "interface skills" like air sharing or tool pushing.
    I refuse to believe that corporations are people until Texas executes one.

    "Too often ... people enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought" - Leapfrog
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  3. #653
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    Of course not, and GUE doesn't advocate that at all. You've got to have the requisite amount of training, experience, and equipment to undertake dives of any degree, from 20ft reef bimbles to deep cave exploration. How much constitutes 'right' is just a matter of degree.

    In my mind, if you ever have to ask yourself if a dive is ok to do with someone, the answer is 'its not'. Having similar training greatly helps in the selection process, as does diving in more benign conditions.

    Buddy selection is like an inverted pyramid. I'll dive with just about anyone in 30ft of water, but my list of buddies for complex cave dives is sparsly populated.

    ---------- Post added ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassamania View Post
    I don't see that as "team." I see it as competent diving combined with good situational awareness. "Team" stuff, to me, are those skills that either require two or more people to work together or that are what we refer to as "interface skills" like air sharing or tool pushing.
    I do, but I guess our definitions vary a little.

  4. #654
     


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    DaleC's Avatar
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    Lynne, I would change nothing about GUE training - as I have said numerous times, I think it is a good thing. I just don't think it's the only good thing all the time for every person. Now, if you were asking me how I might construct a course designed solely for recreational divers to be safe and competent in today's world, as we find it, I might have a approach that weighted certain concepts differently. But it would still only be one approach. Yours would be just as valid.

    As this thread is in the advanced rec diving sub forum and deals with why there may still be lingering negative impressions towards DIR diving I was trying to show that not recognizing cost as a barrier and the implied notion that fundies is the default course for skills improvement may be two motivating factors. As invested in your regime as you (and some others here) are, I recognize the strength with which you would like to defend or represent it's positive aspects. All I'm saying is that the vast majority of divers are invested in other regimes (to greater or lesser degrees) and are probably just as defensive when it is suggested there choices are... sub optimal.
    Not that you have said that but the suggestion is sometimes subtly (or not so) implied in internet discussions and by the use of certain terminology.

    Adobo, don't take it personal. It's great that you can take fundies so cheaply. I was speaking from my personal experience costing out both UTD and GUE training and in general terms with the knowledge that many people travel for training, pay for housing and equipment upgrades. You can argue for the lowest cost denominator but currently it's not the reality for many. You can beat me down for suggesting that but if anyone were actually interested in what motivates negative impressions they might actually contemplate what is being offered. Or not.
    If no one reinvented the wheel we'd still be driving around on stone wheels.

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  5. #655
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    Adobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaleC View Post
    Lynne, I would change nothing about GUE training - as I have said numerous times, I think it is a good thing. I just don't think it's the only good thing all the time for every person. Now, if you were asking me how I might construct a course designed solely for recreational divers to be safe and competent in today's world, as we find it, I might have a approach that weighted certain concepts differently. But it would still only be one approach. Yours would be just as valid.

    As this thread is in the advanced rec diving sub forum and deals with why there may still be lingering negative impressions towards DIR diving I was trying to show that not recognizing cost as a barrier and the implied notion that fundies is the default course for skills improvement may be two motivating factors. As invested in your regime as you (and some others here) are, I recognize the strength with which you would like to defend or represent it's positive aspects. All I'm saying is that the vast majority of divers are invested in other regimes (to greater or lesser degrees) and are probably just as defensive when it is suggested there choices are... sub optimal.
    Not that you have said that but the suggestion is sometimes subtly (or not so) implied in internet discussions and by the use of certain terminology.

    Adobo, don't take it personal. It's great that you can take fundies so cheaply. I was speaking from my personal experience costing out both UTD and GUE training and in general terms with the knowledge that many people travel for training, pay for housing and equipment upgrades. You can argue for the lowest cost denominator but currently it's not the reality for many. You can beat me down for suggesting that but if anyone were actually interested in what motivates negative impressions they might actually contemplate what is being offered. Or not.
    DaleC,

    Just so you don't mistake my intent....

    Unlike others, I am not invested in anything. My guess is that at best, you or most others taking any sort of GUE training benefits me only in the most abstract of terms. At best. And I don't particularly mind if mine is not the most popular approach to diving.

    But in the interest of participating in the Scubaboard community, I thought my contribution could be to shed some light on what I think is real and what is perceived. (Maybe to some those are the same things, I don't know.) Ok, to be honest, this has more to do with self entertainment than being a good Scubaboard citizen.

    I can appreciate you making a statement regarding the costs to someone who has to travel to another location or has to fly an instructor in for instruction being a barrier for taking these kinds of classes. I myself have had to travel twice to take instruction scuba instruction. I know full well the gravity of the expenses involved in such an undertaking. And as with you, that money is money I no longer have available for my family.

    However, the scale of the costs you imply is hard to reconcile. Even if the diver has to travel for the class. I kept harping on this point since my experience in Scubaboard (and the interwebs in general) is that people are not averse to making stuff up and will change topics when called on it. But whatever, dead horse beaten twice over.

    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.

    - Mark Twain

  6. #656
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    danvolker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaleC View Post
    Lynne, I would change nothing about GUE training - as I have said numerous times, I think it is a good thing. I just don't think it's the only good thing all the time for every person. Now, if you were asking me how I might construct a course designed solely for recreational divers to be safe and competent in today's world, as we find it, I might have a approach that weighted certain concepts differently. But it would still only be one approach. Yours would be just as valid.

    As this thread is in the advanced rec diving sub forum and deals with why there may still be lingering negative impressions towards DIR diving I was trying to show that not recognizing cost as a barrier and the implied notion that fundies is the default course for skills improvement may be two motivating factors. As invested in your regime as you (and some others here) are, I recognize the strength with which you would like to defend or represent it's positive aspects. All I'm saying is that the vast majority of divers are invested in other regimes (to greater or lesser degrees) and are probably just as defensive when it is suggested there choices are... sub optimal.
    Not that you have said that but the suggestion is sometimes subtly (or not so) implied in internet discussions and by the use of certain terminology.

    Adobo, don't take it personal. It's great that you can take fundies so cheaply. I was speaking from my personal experience costing out both UTD and GUE training and in general terms with the knowledge that many people travel for training, pay for housing and equipment upgrades. You can argue for the lowest cost denominator but currently it's not the reality for many. You can beat me down for suggesting that but if anyone were actually interested in what motivates negative impressions they might actually contemplate what is being offered. Or not.
    Dale,
    There are going to be plenty of divers that can not afford the travel and cost of Fundies....There is no reason for them to develop a hatred for GUE or DIR because of this.
    If they really want this skill set, the DIR community is extremely open to MENTORING. If anything, this is something DIR is known for, whereas the mainstream agencies like PADI, NAUI, IANTD, TDI, ETC, are not known for having a MAJOR subset of their diving community involved in FREE MENTORING. WKPP begain this, it was essential to DIR, and it is the exact opposite of the money hungry nature of Training Agency caricatures.

    If you wanted this for yourself, or some friend, there is a big DIR community that would/will help you find GUE trained divers in your area. FACT!
    These divers LIKE to dive with people interested in DIR and GUE.

    It is NOT all about the money.
    TSandM likes this.
    Regards,
    Dan Volker
    South Florida Dive Journal SFDJ.COM & www.facebook.com/WILD.DIVING

  7. #657
    Assimilated Medical Mod


    Counting days to CAVEZZZZ!
     

    TSandM's Avatar
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    Dan, that is SO true! In the four places I'm familiar with (Vancouver, Seattle, Monterey and LA) there are whole communities of GUE divers who welcome folks who are curious or interested in improving their skills. We're having a ton of fun with our midweek dives, and have attracted some very nice newer divers (including the young man who was the genesis of this thread).
    "If something goes tits up, don't count on rising to the occasion. You will fall to what you have truly mastered." (PfcAJ)
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  8. #658
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSandM View Post
    Dan, that is SO true! In the four places I'm familiar with (Vancouver, Seattle, Monterey and LA) there are whole communities of GUE divers who welcome folks who are curious or interested in improving their skills. We're having a ton of fun with our midweek dives, and have attracted some very nice newer divers (including the young man who was the genesis of this thread).
    I know!!!
    It makes you wonder why DIR does not automatically have a much more positive reputation, considering how much DIR offers for free. Maybe the negativity comes from some Diveshops that are annoyed that they may lose some instruction and gear sales to the DIR "initiated".... ? :-)
    JamesK likes this.
    Regards,
    Dan Volker
    South Florida Dive Journal SFDJ.COM & www.facebook.com/WILD.DIVING

  9. #659
     


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    DaleC's Avatar
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    Dan I am aware of the mentoring program in Vancouver and spoke with someone regarding it before. It's a good thing.
    As mentioned several times, I personally don't have any sort of "hate" on for DIR and the history of past bitterness doesn't really influence my thinking at all.
    There was a time when I (along with some others) was considering the pathway, but for several reasons have not chosen to pursue it (yet). The others did. Mainly, when all things are considered, I recognized that I only dive in a way that would take full advantage of the regime perhaps 10% of the time and I believe (for myself) that the skills only benefits of taking fundies can also be gained via other routes.
    I enjoy a peaceful coexistence with my DIR oriented friends.
    lowviz likes this.
    If no one reinvented the wheel we'd still be driving around on stone wheels.

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  10. #660
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    In a lot of ways this discussion reminds me of when I was a kid ... in the third grade, living in Knoxville, TN, when school integration was mandated by the courts. There was a lot of turmoil outside the school, where parents and professional agitators were having all manner of objections. Meanwhile, the kids were inside getting along just fine and wondering what all the fuss was about.

    People take Fundies and other DIR-oriented classes for all manner of reasons. Sometimes it has absolutely nothing to do with becoming a holistic diver, joining the club, or diving with the cool kids ... the class just happens to offer them something they want. Then they stumble onto threads like this, read the usual arguments, and wonder what all the fuss is about.

    I just spent three days in British Columbia, doing a bunch of dives with nine other divers. Three of us were in BP/W, long hose, and some manner of DIR training. The rest were more typical recreational divers ... all in split fins, short hoses, and cloth BCDs. We had a great time diving together ... and that's really kinda the point of diving, don'tchya think?


    Dale, a comment on this point you made earlier ...

    I will still maintain that if one is going to dive recreationally, the way many people do, one will wind up violating some of the core tenets of the DIR philosophy.

    ... so what? I think the majority of the people I know who went through a Fundamentals class ultimately decided to pursue some other direction in their diving ... I certainly did. People evolve, after all, as their diving experiences expand. And I'll still maintain that my Fundamentals classes were money well spent ... both times. What I learned in that class provided a solid foundation for classes and diving styles I pursued later on that had absolutely nothing to do with DIR.

    I still don't understand why we get these recurring arguments ... I think, for a lot of people, the reason they choose a Fundamentals class really does boil down to a lack of being able to find someone else who teaches these skills ... in large part because they deal with dive shops who think they're unnecessary, or who lack instructors who are capable of teaching people the solid skills they desire.

    I ask you, Dale ... if you could take a non-DIR class at a local dive shop that offered the skills you wanted, would this topic even interest you? Why would you care about the cost of Fundamentals if you could get the same training elsewhere at a lower price? The fact that you do care tells me that ... despite claims to the contrary ... the alternative simply isn't available. Dive shops are more interested in telling you what you need than they are in selling you what you want. So perhaps all these objections are aimed at the wrong people after all.

    Like those kids in my third grade class, I really do sometimes wonder what all the fuss is about ...

    ... Bob (Grateful Diver)
    It was just below freezing and snow was falling steadily. As we stepped toward that portal separating a cold and dreary world from the tranquility and wonder of another dimension teeming with life and color a passer-by shook his head and muttered "crazy". Poor fool. If he only knew. (Airsix)

    Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/

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