why enter a cave

[nimoh]

I posted this in the Basic Scuba Discussions, since I am anticipating that this thread will go in the direction of turning new divers away from caves. I myself am not cave certified yet (but working on it), so I will not offer any insight into the training and equipment needed for safely conducting cave dives, but that is not the point of this post anyway, the point is what draws a certified diver that is not cave certified into a cave.

I have to think that the draw is likely based on what drew the diver to scuba diving in the first place, exploring the unknown. I think divers tend to be adventurous types, however I have read far more stories of certified divers diving in caves than non-certified divers trying scuba diving. I will agree that my premise is not rock solid, perhaps I am reading the wrong forums so not finding the stories of non-certified divers. So feel free to attack my premise as well as anything else in this post...I have pretty thick skin

Why is it then that people that want to try scuba diving generally feel the need to seek out training, and then once trained feel that should be able to pull off a cave dive without further training?

I have read a lot of discussions where people voice their opinions on specialty classes from agencies as being cash grabs and not really worth it. Perhaps some divers lump cave training in with this, thinking that in the class they would learn some simple tasks such as tying a line at the entrance, and using it to get back out. I have to admit, it does sound pretty simple, doesn't it?

Perhaps some of these divers are reading discussions about cave diving with respect to proper trim and buoyancy, and think they have the skills necessary to complete the dive safely. I thought I had pretty good buoyancy and trim, until I started preparing for my upcoming GUE Fundamentals class and tried to maintain buoyancy and trim while task loading (it wasn't pretty the first few times, but getting better).

Then again, perhaps they don't think about it at all and just get caught up in the moment, proceeding into a cave.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

There's a common saying that you don't know what you don't know. What I've discovered ... what I experienced as a new diver ... is that there's also a common tendency to assume you know more than you really do.

Scuba training often reinforces this ... because training is mostly targeted toward divers who only need, or want, to learn enough to be able to put their trust in someone who will guide them on a dive, do all their planning and thinking for them, and "keep them safe" until they're back on the boat. It's a business decision that this amount of training is sufficient for the majority of people who will ever attempt scuba ... and for the most part, those who made that decision are correct.

Where it fails is that the same training is offered to people in environments where that approach ... and the skills it attempts to teach ... are inadequate for the environment in which they'll be diving. Take the dive guide out of the equation, and people need to think for themselves. In the basic OW curriculum, we tell people that they should plan their dive ... but they are rarely taught how to do it. We tell them that they should dive with a buddy ... but they are rarely taught how to do it. They learn skills serially ... usually while planted firmly on their knees ... and they leave the class believing this is sufficient ... never really understanding that diving is the art of engaging multiple skills simultaneously while observing and responding to a constantly changing set of circumstances. This sometimes proves to be an environment that they are pitifully unprepared to deal with.

Then they go out and do a few dives ... nothing goes wrong ... and they begin to believe that they've got it all figured out. And so they attempt dives they have no business attempting ... not even beginning to understand the risks involved, much less preparing themselves to deal with them.

This is a pattern that gets played out over and over, day in and day out, around the world. For the most part, people rely on luck. And for the most part, nothing goes wrong and they survive just fine. In many cases, as these people gain experience, they begin to understand the risks they took ... or have continued to take ... and do something about it. Nobody really wants to die on scuba, after all ... and when someone survives an incident, or recognizes a risk they hadn't really considered before ... it usually acts as a motivator to seek more skill and more knowledge through additional training.

In my early days as a diver I was one of those people ... I took risks back then because I was unaware I was taking them. I made decisions about dives back then that I wouldn't make today ... despite my greater training and experience ... because now I'm aware of and understand the potential consequences of the risks I was taking.

Hubris and ignorance are what primarily motivates people choosing to do dives that are beyond their capability. Either they're unaware of the risks, or they believe themselves to be more capable of dealing with them than they actually are.

In my case, I was fortunate enough to find a mentor ... someone far more experienced than me ... who taught me how to think about these things. It was the most important diving skill I ever learned ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TreyR]

Most people don't know what it is that they don't know.

It seems simple enough. There is alot of classes available to ow divers that are not necessarily needed. Like computer diver, Really!? When you move to the technical end of diving, training is paramount. There is more to entering a cave then just knowing how to use a reel. One of the most important things you learn is how to handle emergencies. Such as lost buddy, lost line, zero vis, light failures, lose of breathing gas.

Most people start by bending simple rules and have no issues, as they become more confident they push the envelope further and further. They may have entered a cave before and there wasn't much to it. So the next time they go a little farther in then they get confused about where the exit was. Without training they become lost and panic or run out of air.

Every-time some one dies in a cave not only is it a lost life, it is a black eye to the cave community. Cave divers spend a lot of effort trying to convince not only their own families their hobby is safe but land owners who restrict cave diving. A disproportional number of deaths in our caves are non cave trained divers.

 

[jmneill]

I am anticipating that this thread will go in the direction of turning new divers away from caves.

You surely possess second sight!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Training simply is not needed to go into a cave. It's needed to get out of the cave alive.

Cave diving is simple - deceptively so as it's very easy until something goes wrong, and without training something will go wrong (sooner rather than later) and you will at a minimum lose all visual reference.

Once you silt it out, or your light fails, or a reg fails, or you get separated, etc, it's no longer simple or fun. That's when proper, training, equipment and planning is essential and makes all the difference between dying - or just having an interesting afternoon using all the knowledge, skills, ability, equipment and experience you acquired in a formal cave diving training program.

 

[Darnold9999]

I think it is a bit more complicated than just divers diving beyond their experience and training.

Over the years I have been on many guided dives where a "cave" was part of the dive. Mostly these "caves" are there to spice up the dive experience for your typical tourist diver. They are typically cavern's with no risk of silt outs and easy access to the exit, but the diver comes away from the dive knowing that they have been in a "cave" and that they were really in no danger at all. How does the inexperienced diver tell the difference between this kid of "cave" that they found to be a completely benign environment (yet described as a cave and a "dangerous" dive) and one where the risks are real and substantial. I suspect that this is often a slippery slope kind of situation where a diver has been in one kind of cave, and then progresses over time into a real cave without really knowing that they have crossed the line from a benign tourist dive to a high risk dive. How would they know the difference? I don't think I could determine where that line is, that is, when exactly it is that a hole in the wall changes from the slight thrill of a cavern to the extreme risk of a cave. When exactly it is that I have gone from pushing the envelope of my training (which we all do) in a cavern to being in significant peril in a cave. A sign saying this cave is dangerous really does not convey this difference as I already know that both activities are dangerous.

 

[socaljohn]

I think it really pretty simple and basic to the human condition. Some of the reasons have been noted by others but to me:
1) That looks cool!!!
2) It won't hurt to go in a little ways, followed by a little farther…
3) Most people over-rate their skills in many areas (ever know a teen who did not think he as computer genius? or a twenty-something that did not think he is in the top 5% of skilled drivers?)

Personally, I respect my abilities and the abilities needed for some activities. Maybe that is because I am old or maybe I am old because of it.

 

[jmneill]

I don't think I could determine where that line is, that is, when exactly it is that a hole in the wall changes from the slight thrill of a cavern to the extreme risk of a cave.

My personal line in the sand (usually) is turning around before the light goes out behind me. This is usually not far past the reaper.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think it is a bit more complicated than just divers diving beyond their experience and training.

Over the years I have been on many guided dives where a "cave" was part of the dive. Mostly these "caves" are there to spice up the dive experience for your typical tourist diver. They are typically cavern's with no risk of silt outs and easy access to the exit, but the diver comes away from the dive knowing that they have been in a "cave" and that they were really in no danger at all. How does the inexperienced diver tell the difference between this kid of "cave" that they found to be a completely benign environment (yet described as a cave and a "dangerous" dive) and one where the risks are real and substantial. I suspect that this is often a slippery slope kind of situation where a diver has been in one kind of cave, and then progresses over time into a real cave without really knowing that they have crossed the line from a benign tourist dive to a high risk dive. How would they know the difference? I don't think I could determine where that line is, that is, when exactly it is that a hole in the wall changes from the slight thrill of a cavern to the extreme risk of a cave. When exactly it is that I have gone from pushing the envelope of my training (which we all do) in a cavern to being in significant peril in a cave. A sign saying this cave is dangerous really does not convey this difference as I already know that both activities are dangerous.

What you just described sounds exactly like the kind of "tourist" cave where five people ... including the dive guide ... recently died in Italy.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

My personal line in the sand (usually) is turning around before the light goes out behind me. This is usually not far past the reaper.

And that thinking got one person killed a few weeks ago and almost another yesterday.