Weight Belt AND (Less) Integrated Weight in BCD

[rsingler]

And I quote from the Basic Scuba Discussions header: "This forum is intended to be a very friendly, "flame free zone" where divers of any skill level may ask questions about basic scuba topics without fear of being accosted."

Okay, here goes. I posted this in the Basic Forum because I think beginning divers should see the discussion. I'm wary of the replies, but I feel strongly about this.

Question: When neutrally buoyant underwater, should you wear just part of your weight in your integrated weight pouches and put on a small amount of soft weight on a comfortable belt under your BCD, so that you are neutrally buoyant both in and out of your gear?

Background: Been diving 25 years, but with 10 years off for kids. I return with my old orange Scubapro Classic and weight belt, and get lots of eyeballs. So I go buy a used jacket BCD with integrated weights before I shift to a backpack and wings. I'm doing Advanced Open Water because the last dive boat captain won't let me do a deep dive without the plastic card, no matter how many dives I've got under my belt.
I'm doing an AOW doffing drill in the pool with my (7-years-diving) Instructor, and when I take off my gear at the bottom of the pool, I have to hang on to the shoulder strap because I'm starting to float upside down because all the weight's in my BCD, and I'm positively buoyant in my wetsuit. I haven't learned to grab the tank with my knees yet, because I never had to do that before.
I tell him, this is nuts! I should wear a weight belt like I always did, and put less weight in the BCD pockets. And he replies, "That's stupid! Just straddle your tank and hang on tight with your knees and do what you need to do before you don your gear again."

So I read the recent article on SB: ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network - How a Small Group of Instructors Spurred Reform in Scuba Instruction and I see that beginning in 2014, being neutrally buoyant is FINALLY going to be taught from the start (like it use to be in the old days). Hooray! Then I'm thinking, well, what about all the new divers going through what I went through trying out integrated weight systems, and not being neutrally buoyant except while in their gear?

Is it going to contribute to calmness, being upside down because you didn't expect to float away from your BCD? And now your second stage (assuming it isn't at the bottom of the pool with you at the top) is breathing hard and wet because you're upside down. How many folks will we scare away during this drill? I found it amusing, albeit frustrating, as I floated there pondering how to pull down and get back into my BCD. Will a new, anxious student find it quite so funny?

I've talked to a dozen folks, and all but one say "Put all your weight in the BCD. You're never going to have to doff underwater anyway." That just doesn't seem right to me. In a slightly-elevated-risk sport, why would you train to do something different from what would be best in an emergency? What Monterey, CA diver hasn't (at least briefly) been caught in kelp and (as a little panic starts to set in), pondered getting out of the gear that's temporarily trapping him 10 feet below the surface?

So did I just hit a rogue group of 11 divers who all think Integrated Weight Systems are the only way to dive? And all of the rest of you think like I do? If you don't like splitting weight, what are your reasons (other than a couple of bulls*** comments I got about uncomfortable weight belts under a cummerbund) for NOT splitting your weights?
In a 7mm wetsuit plus 5mm hooded vest for a 50F Monterey dive w/steel tank, I'm wearing 8lb on a belt and 8lb in pockets. In warm water, I'm wearing 4lb on a belt and nothing in the BCD but my steel tank (which is -0.6lb empty).

Have at it; take your best shot. Remember, this is a no-flame forum for new divers to learn something. Teach this old guy why he's wrong to split his weights. I love SB!

 

[dumpsterDiver]

You are wrong. Do not split your weight. Wear it all on a weight belt.

 

[rsingler]

You are wrong. Do not split your weight. Wear it all on a weight belt.

Thank you! Just the sort of helpful reply Scubaboard is famous for.
So you wear an orange Scubapro Classic too!

 

[Steve_C]

I have pocket shorts over BCD. Transfer weights to pockets. Do the gear thing. Put weights back in BCD.
Not so bad.

 

[nuts4diving]

You present a valid argument. The important thing is that your buddy knows your setup. Q

 

[rsingler]

I have pocket shorts over BCD. Transfer weights to pockets. Do the gear thing. Put weights back in BCD.
Not so bad.

Sorry! A little too cryptic for me. I had to Google "pocket shorts." Cool! I could try that instead of a weight belt. Don't know what it'll do to my trim, but I can try it. Yeah! I'll "do the gear thing!"

But then you confused me: "Put weights back in BCD"??

Did you try splitting but gave it up because having it all in your BCD is "not so bad"? Or do you split between your pocket shorts and your BCD?

 

[Colliam7]

Question: When neutrally buoyant underwater, should you wear just part of your weight in your integrated weight pouches and put on a small amount of soft weight on a comfortable belt under your BCD, so that you are neutrally buoyant both in and out of your gear?

You ask a very good question, and one that is tough to answer in absolute terms. Arguments can be made for wearing some / all on your belt / body, independent of your scuba unit, and arguments can be made for putting it all in the scuba unit. So, for most it comes down to personal preference, and we can tell you what we do (i.e. what our personal preferences are), and why, but not necessarily what you should do.

I like to minimize the amount of weight I carry. I also like to minimize the amount of weight I carry on my waist. That has less to do with any physical discomfort than it does with trim (i.e. putting my center of weight lower on my body than my center of lift), which pulls my feet down when I am swimming horizontally. In very general terms (and this principle is periodically violated) I prefer to dive so that I (me and my exposure suit) am roughly neutrally buoyant, and my scuba unit (bladder, harness, cylinder and regulator) is roughly neutrally buoyant. Or, at least the distribution of weight isn't so skewed that it puts me in either the situation you describe (and I have been there, early in my diving), or in a situation where I doff my scuba unit and am hanging onto it from below, desperately trying to keep it from floating away while I am welded to the bottom by my (excess) weight. In some cases, my unit is going to be intrinsically negative - double steel 130s, even with an AL plate, and no air in the wing, being one example - while I am going to be positive (in my drysuit, for example, or in a 5mm wetsuit). That is just what it is.

When diving wet with a single cylinder, I prefer a steel backplate, and / or a steel cylinder. With a 1 or 3mm suit in fresh water that may mean I have no weight belt. But, it also means that I am not so positive that I will be hanging onto the unit below me quite as you describe.

But, in salt water in a wetsuit, with a steel BP and an AL or steel cylinder, I carry a small amount of weight on my waist. In salt water with a drysuit, I carry weight on my waist, and I wear a steel plate, and a single steel cylinder, or double steel or aluminum cylinders. If I take my scuba unit off, I will not necessarily be negative, the scuba unit definitely will. But, the disparity won't be that horrific either.

It seems to me that the industry is moving inexorably in the direction of weight-integrated BCDs. My first BCD was WI - a Zeagle Ranger which I still own, and dive at times, albeit with only a modest amount of weight, if any placed in the pockets. I do not like most of the available WIU BCDs, in part because of where the weight is placed, relative to the diver's center of lift, and vertical mid-line when viewed from the side (weight is lower on the torso than the center of lift, weight is forward of the midline, while the center of lift is aft of that line). But, that is MY preference, and I won't say another diver should or should not hold the same view.

. . . when I take off my gear at the bottom of the pool, I have to hang on to the shoulder strap because I'm starting to float upside down because all the weight's in my BCD, and I'm positively buoyant in my wetsuit. I haven't learned to grab the tank with my knees yet, because I never had to do that before.

Actually, I think that - straddling the cylinder with your knees - is a good skill to learn. It certainly helps when removing and replacing a scuba unit at the surface. But, the appeal of learning the skill is not an argument for stuffing all your weight in the BCD.

I tell him, this is nuts! I should wear a weight belt like I always did, and put less weight in the BCD pockets. And he replies, "That's stupid!"

I will disagree with the instructor. It is not stupid, at all. But, if he prefers to do it that way, I won't say he is stupid, either.

I've talked to a dozen folks, and all but one say "Put all your weight in the BCD. You're never going to have to doff underwater anyway." That just doesn't seem right to me.

It isn't right for me, either. But, it may be right for someone else, and I will let them have their way.

I am not a CA kelp diver, but have had two situations diving NC wrecks where I decided to simply take my scuba unit off, and clear a problem and put it back on, at depth (80-120 feet), in part because I knew I could without worrying that either the scuba unit, or me, was going to be as buoyant as a full lift bag without the other. So, I will also disagree with those who told you that there will never be a situation where you will do that. You may have been away from diving for a while, but the principles of physics really haven't changed, even if industry marketing has.

 

[rivers]

I split my weight if I'm in the sea. 2kg on a weight belt, 3kg v-weight between my twinset. if i'm in fresh water, it's 2kg on my weightbelt and that's it. Use what's right for you and screw everyone else.

 

[rsingler]

Colliam7,
Thank you for a very well-considered reply. You are more diplomatic than I, lol!
Agree with the trim issues. Part of my BCD mounted weight is a 2-lb solid velcro'ed high around my shoulder strap. Low weight makes me fin-heavy as well.

I appreciate the reassurance, though the breadth of your concurrence may scare away anyone who was planning on disagreeing with split weight. You and rivers may have nipped this thread in the bud! Oops!

Now we can ask, does anybody teach this at the OW level?

 

[Colliam7]

Part of my BCD mounted weight is a 2-lb solid velcro'ed high around my shoulder strap. Low weight makes me fin-heavy as well.

You are clearly in touch with your individual trim needs. Good for you! I have attached a 2 lb weight to each shoulder strap of one BCD with plastic tie wraps, and put cam band weight pockets on the shoulder straps of another, to do just the same thing, particularly if I am wearing Jet Fins.

Now we can ask, does anybody teach this at the OW level?

Uh-oh, now you've gone and done it!

I will sneak in my comments before the possible deluge. Again, I can only speak for what I (try to) do, not for what others may prefer. And, my answer is very clear and definite - Yes and No. It is relatively easy to do in small, private OW classes, so the answer is Yes. It is a wee bit harder to do in larger (8 student) group classes I teach through our shop, where the students are all wearing jacket BCDs that are a bit more challenging to modify, and the timeline is tighter (now, there I've gone and done it as well, opened Pandora's Dive Locker on yet another issue with OW training). So, we generally use (only) weight belts, so the answer is No. Although, it is also easy to put some weight in the BCD pockets when appropriate, so I guess the answer is Maybe. We definitely work to minimize weighting, and to evaluate the trim of each student. Like what I imagine at least some others do, I try things such as clipping ankle weights around the cylinder valve, as a quick / easy way to test the effects of moving weight up (which is the most common need I encounter)

I definitely teach this at the AOW level - many students own their own equipment, I want to help them optimize their rig for trim, and often the equipment lends itself to modification. However, a slightly different issue arises at times in AOW - frustrating but real. I work with a few divers who have either a) not been exposed to the issue during OW, or didn't grasp the importance of / pay attention to what was being communicated, or b) purchased their own equipment on the basis of a local sales pitch, or bad advice from a somewhat under-informed diving friend, or pricing influence from an online retailer selling some great package at an unbelievably low price - i.e. whatever their source of purchasing information was, they did not receive, or seek, good advice. Those who have not been exposed to concepts of weight distribution and trim seem somewhat skeptical - they haven't heard of it before so it must not be really that important. Those that have purchased their spanking new, weight-integrated, fully padded (and very buoyant) BCDs don't necessarily want to hear that what they could have done is buy a simpler, more streamlined, less fluffy BCD for a lower price, that might be more easily adapted to their individual weight distribution needs. Fortunately, both types of diver are in the definite minority. But, both types are also less enthusiastic about addressing the very issue you originally raised. Go figure.