Understating Qualification on Charter Boats

[mathauck0814]

It bothers me that I lie on the waiver form and sign it. What if there's multiple divers in trouble at the surface and the op needs help beyond what the DM can do - do you help them? You have the training but if you help are you in trouble with the op who assumes that since you are only AOW don't have the training and therefore shouldn't help? If you decide not to help wouldn't your conscious bother you? In either case if there is a formal investigation can you be held liable for anything knowing full well that you lied? Any thoughts or actual experiences?

Splitting this out from another thread as it's off topic for that discussion. The initial context was around understating your qualifications on a dive boat charter.

To address the questions in the above...

It bothers me that I lie on the waiver form and sign it.

There's no lie in claiming to be an AOW diver. You are an AOW diver. You may have more cards, but you're very definitely still qualified as an AOW.

What if there's multiple divers in trouble at the surface and the op needs help beyond what the DM can do - do you help them?

The Captain and Crew of a dive boat are in charge of emergency situations. In the US, the Captain has a legal obligation to the situation. They will direct people as needed.

You have the training but if you help are you in trouble with the op who assumes that since you are only AOW don't have the training and therefore shouldn't help?

Having handled diving emergencies while crew on a boat I can tell you beyond the shadow of a doubt that I didn't bother to physically go through the manifest to see who had training to help. If you're nearby, expect to start getting barked at to help get things or do things to aid the crew if they need it. Your level of training and qualification are your concern, not mine, in the case of an emergency.

If you decide not to help wouldn't your conscious bother you? In either case if there is a formal investigation can you be held liable for anything knowing full well that you lied? Any thoughts or actual experiences?

Again, you didn't lie. Largely, passengers (and for the most part, Crew) are protected by the good samaritan laws. In my experience, diving accidents happen outside of the crews' (and usually, passengers') direct supervision. All you can do is help to deal with the aftermath. So long as you weren't knowingly harmful or negligent all anyone can say is that you did your best.

I'm sure there are other people out there with experience that can chime in to help.

 

[rivers]

In the off chance I need to show a card to a charter or shuttle, I'll show them the one that will cover the dive I'm planning to do. In the UK, it would be my fundies card as I'll be in a drysuit, on a twinset, diving 32%. If they wanted a card that covered deco, most likely my BSAC sports or ADP card. Abroad, probably my fundies card, if they didn't accept that my sports or PADI AOW. Once I complete my DM, I most likely won't show that as there is no need. If I'm diving in the UK, it will be with one of my mates. If I'm diving abroad on holiday, chances are I'll elect not to have a designated buddy and do my own thing with the group in close-ish proximity. If I'm on holiday, I don't want to baby-sit.

 

[EFX]

On most of the waivers it asks for highest certification level obtained not just any level. Getting barked at to retrieve a life preserver or hand one to a panicked diver is one thing but telling someone to actually assist them (which is what I was thinking of) is another. My level of training is my concern and not yours? Really? Maybe on your dive boat. I would think that op's have a moral obligation to know what level divers are at and strive to not put them in harms way, rescue or not. I would think that would be imporatant to lawyers in lawsuit. Then why bother asking about cert level (>= AOW) when diving on a 90 ft. wreck?

 

[mathauck0814]

On most of the waivers it asks for highest certification level obtained not just any level. Getting barked at to retrieve a life preserver or hand one to a panicked diver is one thing but telling someone to actually assist them (which is what I was thinking of) is another. My level of training is my concern and not yours? Really? Maybe on your dive boat. I would think that op's have a moral obligation to know what level divers are at and strive to not put them in harms way, rescue or not. I would think that would be imporatant to lawyers in lawsuit. Then why bother asking about cert level (>= AOW) when diving on a 90 ft. wreck?

Your profile doesn't say where you're located. A lot of boats here in California don't check certification at all. For liability reasons: if we check then we're responsible for sanctioning that the person is qualified to do the dive. The thinking is that the sites are posted on the website and you decided you could do that dive so you paid your money and came along.

In general - and speaking from experience, not speaking for any boat that I've worked or dove from - I've seen folks here ask for proof of certification to buy nitrox or to register for a technical dive, but even then I'd say it's the exception and not the rule. Nitrox kind of makes sense because we're giving you the gas. If you brought your own nitrox, I probably wouldn't need to see your card.

California boats are maybe a little different in that they're taxi services. We pick you up at a dock and then drop you off in the middle of the ocean. Our crew and DM stay on board the boat. You dive your plan and you come back. If you get into trouble it's really on you and your buddy to sort out. Like I said, we handle the aftermath. So in a lot of ways, yeah: your training is your problem.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

There's a reason I refuse to hold a current certification for anything remotely related to rescue/emergency care. Having the training is a very good thing; having a piece of plastic with your name on it is for other people's benefit, not your own, and carries its own set of litigation risks for you. It would still be a big stretch to say non-professionals have a duty to act, rather than a duty to perform to their level of training should they decide to act, but it's not something I'd care to litigate.

 

[mathauck0814]

On most of the waivers it asks for highest certification level obtained not just any level.

I'm not really sure what to do with this one. What is my "highest level of certification"? Wouldn't that depend on the dive? Last weekend I dove in Oahu on a 110 foot deep wreck using air on open circuit. If I showed my advanced CCR trimix card would that be my highest level of qualification? You could make the argument that my highest level of qualification does not qualify me to do the dive as I'm neither using trimix nor a rebreather.

 

[rhwestfall]

Checking certs in a way of insulating themselves from charges should you go and get yourself killed while doing the dive and nothing else. Unless you are in a paid position on the dive or sponsoring it in some way, you have no legal requirement to provide services in your certified role which you are not acting in. Good Samaritan rules insulate you to assist without risk should you choose. I don't know if a certification agency could sanction you after the fact for not aiding... Morally? That is up to you......

 

[EFX]

On most of the waivers it asks for highest certification level obtained not just any level.

I'm not really sure what to do with this one. What is my "highest level of certification"? Wouldn't that depend on the dive? Last weekend I dove in Oahu on a 110 foot deep wreck using air on open circuit. If I showed my advanced CCR trimix card would that be my highest level of qualification? You could make the argument that my highest level of qualification does not qualify me to do the dive as I'm neither using trimix nor a rebreather.

My assumption is that the op's want to know what level of dive proficiency you have reached. The implication is, in my case, since I have an MD cert I also have rescue training even though I don't also present my rescue card. In your case, I assume you couldn't get the advanced CCR trimix without also being deep certified. A lawyer might argue differntly but no op I know of you would keep you from that deep OC dive even though you preferred not to show your AOW or deep specialty card.

 

[mathauck0814]

My assumption is that the op's want to know what level of dive proficiency you have reached. The implication is, in my case, since I have an MD cert I also have rescue training even though I don't also present my rescue card.

I can see that to a point, but why not show your rescue diver card? Trust me, the boat is not going to see "hey this guy has 50 dives" and be impressed. If anything when I hear that a diver has 50 dives, I get nervous and start watching the inexperienced diver like a hawk. It could be that I live in a place where we dive year round but to me that's a red flag - especially if they've spent their 50 dives card collecting instead of getting diving experience. There's nothing wrong with having very few dives. Every single diver with a thousand dives at one point had fifty. I doubt there are many serious professionals that would rather have the help of a master diver with 50 dives than that of an open water certified diver with a thousand. It's the experience that matters.

But all of that aside, if there's an emergency on the boat I'm not going to go looking for someone with rescue skills, certification or even experience. If I need to tag someone in to help with chest compressions I'm going to grab the body nearest me, show them what to do and then have them do it while I attend to another aspect of the rescue. There just isn't time to consider whether or not you filled out your PADI knowledge reviews when the SHTF.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

First off, let's start out by establishing that liability issues in the USA are all over the map, because in reality anybody can sue anybody for any reason imaginable. They may not win, but since there is no penalty for bringing a frivolous lawsuit against another person, a lot of people try ... after all, it's easier than winning the lottery.

Waivers are to establish what liability the boat has toward you ... not what liability you might have toward other guests on the boat. What you say on the waiver has no bearing at all on the latter. Your actions when assisting another diver may, however. But what you write on the waiver is unlikely to be considered. The reason for understating your qualification is to avoid exactly what happened to you ... getting partnered with a diver who's probably unqualified to be on the dive in the first place because the captain or crew considers you the most likely candidate to "look after" him. It's an unethical practice, to my concern, but you do read about it happening from time to time.

As for assisting during an emergency, let's first establish that unless you're a dive professional or acting in the capacity of paid crew on the boat you have no duty of care to assist at all ... you have every right to decide to sit by and watch. Should you decide to assist, your actions will be judged by your level of training. And in that case it's irrelevent what you put on the waiver ... your highest level of training will be established before the case is presented, and your duty of care will be based not on what you said but on what your training indicates you should be reasonably expected to do and know. On a charter, the crew and/or captain will be in charge of coordinating the response to the emergency, and you will be expected to take orders from them. They may accede some responsibility to you if your level of training exceeds theirs, and they decide that you're in a better position than they are to create the best possible outcome, but the responsibility is still ultimately theirs.

Don't worry about the waiver. Act in good faith ... in accordance with your training. Don't try to do things you aren't qualified to do. Don't do something that puts you or others at greater risk. Take direction from the people who are in control of the emergency ... and you'll likely be OK. But understand that nothing is guaranteed. If there's a lawsuit for any reason, the lawyers will name everyone present, and most vigorously pursue those with the deepest pockets. That's just how our system works.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)