frenzel maneuver

[LVFT]

I've been having difficulty equalizing one of my ears during descent. My left is much slower to equalize as compared to my right (which gives me no problems). I typically utilize the Valsalva method which works for my right ear, but not that great for my left even while descending head up feet down. I have seen an ENT who told me there doesn't seem to be anything anatomically preventing me from equalizing based on my CT scan results. She noted a slightly deviated septum and we got my allergies under control with a daily regiment.

I think I've read every article there is to read about equalization. I believe that I need to utilize a method that activates the muscles to pull my ET open. I've turned my attention to learning the frenzel maneuver. I've been practicing and practicing this technique for some time now and believe I am able to perform it above water. However, I went diving this weekend to practice and had difficulty performing this maneuver. While above water, I am able to close my lips and trap the air in my mouth before using my tongue as a piston. However, when I tried this with a reg in, it felt like most of the air was being exhaled. Is there something I'm missing? I know the frenzel maneuver is the preferred method for freedivers, but how does it work for scuba? Thanks!

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Did you try to do both at the same time? Freedivers want to be able to do it hands free, because having their hand up causes undesirable drag. I still have to pinch my nose, but I can descend on scuba at 150 feet per minute.

Scuba divers are not going to normally need to descend as fast as a freediver and the little extra drag of having your finger on your nose is not an issues, especailly if you are going feet first, which is going to make for a very slow descent. So hands free equalization is very cool and in my book, one trait of a very accomplished diver, but it provides very little benefit in most scuba situations.

 

[Akimbo]

… Freedivers want to be able to do it hands free, because having their hand up causes undesirable drag...

More important is freedivers below the 20M/66' range don’t have enough volume (due to compression) for their diaphragm to force air up to perform a Valsalva maneuver. A lot of freedivers use the Valsalva maneuver shallower because they are descending in the 60M or 200'/minute range and that is where the most frequent equalizing is required.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

More important is freedivers below the 20M/66' range don’t have enough volume (due to compression) for their diaphragm to force air up to perform a Valsalva maneuver. A lot of freedivers use the Valsalva maneuver shallower because they are descending in the 60M or 200'/minute range and that is where the most frequent equalizing is required.

Unfortunately, i personally don't spend much time snorkeling below 70 feet anymore.

 

[Akimbo]

Unfortunately, i personally don't spend much time snorkeling below 70 feet anymore.

I hear ya. I took the course mainly to improve my bottom time Abalone diving. These courses are usually taught by record-setting freedivers that think of 300'+ is a warm-up dive. I didn't personally care much about getting deeper than 60' but it turned out to be the only dive class I have taken since leaving the Navy that was worth spit. A truly pleasant surprise.

 

[TSandM]

I sat here and played with it, and what I found myself doing is that, when I do the Frenzel without a reg in my mouth, I put my tongue against the roof of my mouth just behind my teeth. I couldn't do that when I opened my mouth as it would be with a reg in, so I found myself putting the base of my tongue up against my soft palate instead. Perhaps you are trying the first method, and it isn't sealing well so you're pushing the air out your mouth?

 

[Phantom Menace]

I know you have said you are doing Frenzel OK. I have found that getting people to practice with their mouth open cements the technique in better for freediving.

Maybe try practicing it with a snorkel in your mouth to simulate a reg? I do it all the time while freediving and spearfishing - both with a snorkel in my mouth and without. Note that on the freedive courses I have done and at the free dive club I belong to we get folks to remove the snorkel from their mouth before they dive for safety reasons (and for serious divers they don't wear a snorkel at all as it creates extra drag).

This little video attempts to help people learn Frenzel.
[video]https://youtu.be/SQCfk_JTxWw[/video]

I have shown people and then run them through things on dry land before a depth session and over 80% have got it mastered at that time. Practicing in front of a mirror with mouth open helps too.

(Frenzel will get you to somewhere between 100ft and 120ft on a freedive - after that you move to mouthfill equalising territory which is a different ball game)

 

[LVFT]

Did you try to do both at the same time? Freedivers want to be able to do it hands free, because having their hand up causes undesirable drag. I still have to pinch my nose, but I can descend on scuba at 150 feet per minute.

Can you please elaborate when you say, "did you try to do both at the same time?" I'm not overly concerned with being able to descend hands free at this point in my diving career. I am just concerned with being able to descend and equalize my left ear as easily as my right ear equalizes.

I sat here and played with it, and what I found myself doing is that, when I do the Frenzel without a reg in my mouth, I put my tongue against the roof of my mouth just behind my teeth. I couldn't do that when I opened my mouth as it would be with a reg in, so I found myself putting the base of my tongue up against my soft palate instead. Perhaps you are trying the first method, and it isn't sealing well so you're pushing the air out your mouth?

I kind of just let my tongue lie at the bottom of my mouth rather than using it as a seal. I was not under the impression that the tongue being used as a seal was a requirement..? Then again, I am not a Frenzel master :depressed: Any other suggestions for equalizing when one ear is less cooperative? I think I read through most threads on here. I was certain it was my allergies causing the difficulty, but I've been using a Neilmed every morning along with Flonase and an Aller-Tec pill. I know some people suggest Mucinex in the blue box. People have also suggested removing dairy. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt to see another ENT for a second opinion?

I know you have said you are doing Frenzel OK. I have found that getting people to practice with their mouth open cements the technique in better for freediving.

Maybe try practicing it with a snorkel in your mouth to simulate a reg? I do it all the time while freediving and spearfishing - both with a snorkel in my mouth and without. Note that on the freedive courses I have done and at the free dive club I belong to we get folks to remove the snorkel from their mouth before they dive for safety reasons (and for serious divers they don't wear a snorkel at all as it creates extra drag).

This little video attempts to help people learn Frenzel.
[video]https://youtu.be/SQCfk_JTxWw[/video]

I have shown people and then run them through things on dry land before a depth session and over 80% have got it mastered at that time. Practicing in front of a mirror with mouth open helps too.

(Frenzel will get you to somewhere between 100ft and 120ft on a freedive - after that you move to mouthfill equalising territory which is a different ball game)

To be honest, I never really tried it with my mouth open and perhaps this might be my problem. I just tried it now with my mouth open and it seemed to work. I will definitely try it with a snorkel later today. I'm actually going to try to get to the pool this evening and work on it with a reg. I have indeed seen the vid you provided along with the one by Aharon Solomons. Any other tips?



Does anybody have experience with Skype equalizing session

 

[Phantom Menace]

I kind of just let my tongue lie at the bottom of my mouth rather than using it as a seal. I was not under the impression that the tongue being used as a seal was a requirement..? ......... People have also suggested removing dairy.

Firstly - I have several friends who now swear by the benefits of removing dairy. For many people dairy promotes mucus production (for me it doesn't seem to make too much difference).

Getting the tongue to seal behind your teeth then allows you to use the back of your tongue to build the pressure needed to equalise (assuming you have closed off your epiglottis).

Also, to check that you are indeed doing Frenzel put your hand on your stomach when you equalise (on dry land). If you can feel your stomach / diaphragm etc. tensing at all then you are not doing it right. Muscles from the neck down should all be relaxed if you are using the Frenzel technique.

Also, equalising head down is harder (for many people) than doing it head up - but I note that ou are talking about head up in your initial post anyway.

Good luck.

 

[g1138]

You're probably combining a diaphragm push with your tongue piston. With your mouth closed this works, but with it open you exhale.

The 2 moves need to be seperate and distinct with a reg or snorkel in your mouth. Freedivers take the snorkel out and let it hang or be recovered by their buddy before it sinks. They can afford to combine those 2 moves to make a powerful equalization maneuver.

Scuba divers cannot do this because combining the maneuvers leads to an exhale through the reg.
For us we need to equalize a small controllable portion into our cheeks, Seal off the front of the mouth with the tip of your tongue and fluidly roll it to the back to mimic a swallow. Make sure not to activate your throat for the swallow, just the tongue portion.

I say equalize into the mouth because you not really exhaling. When you inhale, your diaphragm contracts down to allow air into your lungs. Relax it a little after the inhale and you'll let air into your mouth.

Often times I find when teaching this, that student's exhaling into the mouth puts too much back pressure for the Frenzel and you will more than often exhale it out the reg and not equalize easily or at all.

So in a nut shell:
1) Portion air into your mouth (start very small and increase portions as you advance your technique)
2) Seal front of mouth with tongue and roll back

Compared with Freedivers, scuba divers will equalize in smaller portions and at a reduced rate. Luckily we have plenty of air to hang at several descent stops to complete this.