Certifying children

[Ken Kurtis]

Dervan and his 16-year-old son were diving together at the park on Monday. The two surfaced together but the father went back down at about 3:30 p.m. for one final dive to an underwater cavern about 120 feet below the surface and never came back up, Davidson said.

I have never been a fan of certifying young divers for a variety of reasons. Granted, the kid here is 16, but the general point still applies. Whenever I bring up the youth issue to the parent, the response is almost always, "Oh don't worry, I'll aways be with him and make sure that nothing happens." And I say, "That's not my concern. My concern is what happens to the child if something happens to YOU. How will they deal with that?" And the universal answer almost always is, "Oh . . . I hadn't thought of it that way."

Now I'm not saying we should never certify young people (although I still think 10 years old is nuts) and some youth are better-equipped than others emotionally/maturity-wise to deal with it. But it's something that always should be considered when taking a youngster diving. What's the long-term effect if something happens to YOU?

We had a fatality out here in L.A. where a teenager was diving with his over-weight (300-pounds) father and the father had a heart attack underwater. The kid brought the father to the surface next to the boat and screamed for help. The father didn't make it but you certainly couldn't say the kid didn't do everything he could to try to save his dad. Nonetheless, he sat in a corner of the boat and said, "I killed my father." Desite everyone saying, "Absolutely not," that's something that's going to haunt him - and I suspect the 16-year-old in this incident - for the rest of his life.

- Ken

 

[drrich2]

Ken:

As a quick aside, not to take the thread off on a major tangent, do you hold the same views about kids skiing with their parents & other potentially hazardous sports? The main difference I see is that in scuba, if one person goes unresponsive, there're a higher expectation to quickly move the body to the surface & boat, etc... But parents can die in front of their kids in a wide range of scenarios.

Richard.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

. . . do you hold the same views about kids skiing with their parents & other potentially hazardous sports? The main difference I see is that in scuba, if one person goes unresponsive, there're a higher expectation to quickly move the body to the surface & boat, etc...

Quite frankly, I haven't really thought about it as it applies to other sports. But I think you hit the key fact in our sport that gives me pause: We expect the buddy to be rescuer. That's not necessarily the case in other sports. If a parent skis into a tree, we'd expect the kid to go get help but not necessarily be the first responder.

Out of curiosity, I just Googled "minimum age to skydive". As of May 1, 2014, the US Parachute Association says 18 (although a couple of places still say 16 with notarized parental consent). Interesting difference in that our sport will go as low as 10 years old.

- Ken

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

We expect the buddy to be rescuer. - Ken

Not to be contrarian but I do not expect anyone to be my rescuer.
I hope anyone can help but I do not count on it. My son, kids and wife may feel different - but this sport was not meant to be a "walk in the park" and I treat it as such. That does not mean I expect to die on every dive - but I treat each dive as if I need to be watching for everything that can hurt me and or my son.
Medical conditions withstanding - I hope I do not die while diving with my son and maybe I need to have a frank conversation with him about this topic. I have certainly talked with him about the dangers and we both have a good feel that scuba diving is dangerous but this thread may cause me to have a Father to Son talk about any guilt that may be felt due to our sport should something occur.

 

[FinnMom]

If the diver was in fact a capable solo diver, the age of the son is moot. Personally I think that for many individuals 16 is a long way away from being a child. Mentally/emotionally I don't see a normal 16 yrs as an inferior buddy and compared to the average parent/other adult over 45 yrs, a 16 yr-old's physical condition is often vastly better.

 

[Lorenzoid]

If the diver was in fact a capable solo diver, the age of the son is moot. Personally I think that for many individuals 16 is a long way away from being a child. Mentally/emotionally I don't see a normal 16 yrs as an inferior buddy and compared to the average parent/other adult over 45 yrs, a 16 yr-old's physical condition is often vastly better.

Why should it matter whether the parent is a capable solo diver? Accidents happen. The point here, as I understood it, is that for a child or teen to witness their parent die as they dive together might affect them for the rest of their lives, since they aren't fully emotionally developed and have many decades ahead of them. People don't really comprehend death until they are much older.

 

[DandyDon]

We just don't know from the initial news report what the father's possible training & equipment might have been with regard to cavern diving, or if he even changed tanks before going back down. The news media is not likely to try to obtain and add more info now since his body was recovered - story over to them. Anything additional would probably have to come from local divers.

It was very fortunate that he did not take his son into the cavern with him at least, and his son didn't go back down and in looking for him.

Why should it matter whether the parent is a capable solo diver? Accidents happen. The point here, as I understood it, is that for a child or teen to witness their parent die as they dive together might affect them for the rest of their lives, since they aren't fully emotionally developed and have many decades ahead of them. People don't really comprehend death until they are much older.

Witnessing a loved one die sucks be it a parent, a child, a spouse, a childhood sibling, etc. It happens every day in the news, but it sucks - and there is no good age for it. Families still drive together, boat together, water & snow ski together, hike dangerous trails together - and some of those people die. It happens. Ken's example of the parent saying "Oh don't worry, I'll always be with him and make sure that nothing happens" is an all too common attitude from many parents that simply are not being realistic about risks.

What's the minimum age that a kid should be allowed to dive, knowing that they could get hurt or killed, or be in a position of rescuing their parent? I would think the same as the minimum driving age, which is now 16 here - so why have we allowed our money driven industry to lower that to age 10? It's not because of their parents are super guardians, or even good divers. Dive shops have pushed that by us I think, and since we avoid government controls - are we also to blame for allowing them?

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
Witnessing a loved one die sucks be it a parent, a child, a spouse, a childhood sibling, etc. It happens every day in the news, but it sucks - and there is no good age for it. Families still drive together, boat together, water & snow ski together, hike dangerous trails together - and some of those people die. It happens. . . .

This incident aside for the moment--and so my comment is not intended to reflect on anything that was done or not done here--but perhaps a child would not need to suffer growing up without a parent and dealing with years of therapy if more parents gave more thought to the risks of what they do "together." I think one can make a distinction between diving with one's child/teen as a buddy and driving, boating, skiing, hiking, etc., together. Admittedly it all depends on the circumstances.

 

[DKL]

When you play loose and easy with the rules, for diving or any other risky sport, sometimes you roll snake eyes. Would the son have been able to help the father? Maybe, maybe not. At 120 feet a quick ascent could mean a trip to the chamber, or worse, depending on previous dive depths, gas used, bottom time, and residual nitrogen. There are too many things we don't know. However, what we do know is that diving solo in an overhead environment is always a risky proposition, regardless of age or experience.

I feel very bad for the son, who clearly is blaming himself for this incident. I feel bad for the father's death. But maybe this story will change one divers mind the next time he/she decides to play fast and easy with the time tested rules of safe diving. Maybe even one of the members of this board, that reads this thread.

My heart goes out to the family and friends of both these individuals.

 

[drrich2]

On the driving angle, I think there are 2 issues; the risk the young driver poses to him/herself, and the risk he/she poses to others.

On the diving angle, the main risk issue is that you pose to yourself. At least, an out-of-control 10 year old is unlikely to hurtle into a family group and kill them all diving; driving is another story.

I imagine the issue of minimum age for certification is one for another thread. I will add this, though. If you don't allow a formal, supervised venue for kids diving, I suspect a number of parents will engage in informal, unsupervised dive training/diving for their kids. The Law of Unintended Consequences is one to keep in mind. There'd be fewer kids diving, but those doing it might have more risk.

Richard.