Accident discussions worthless? (split from accident thread)

[snuggle]

what i would like to know doppler is whats wrong with people offering their condolecents?do you really think people offer them to make themselves feel better?and another thing..all the diesecting of all the data in the world concerning a divers death wont really tell the whole story of what happened..sure some are cut and dry as to what happened but some are not so..and those will never be fully understood...how is it that some divers can dive to great depths all the time with no problems but yet some divers die in 10 to 15 feet of water..no one knows for sure or can it be atributed 100% as diver error?i think not..when accidents happen there is a lot that is said about this happened and that happened ..then we get the final story that disputes the first and second story and so on and so on..its always the same..and then when divers come here and add more speculation then it becomes a circus of i knows and he knows with the only story not being fully told is the truth...lets face it some divers will die of no fault of theirs thats just the way it is and no matter how you dissect the info we are given, in some case the reasons will never be fully known..again theres nothing wrong with giving condolecents..it shows familys out there of divers that we are thinking of them..isnt that what a so called community does in times like theses??

[Doppler]

what i would like to know doppler is whats wrong with people offering their condolecents?...

I believe I simply stated that it does nothing concrete to change behaviour or arrive at a resolution of the "problem"... and often, the messages of condolence do not find their way to the family and friends. So nothing's "wrong" with it; it simply seems – well – insufficient. How about a word of support for Ron Irvine? There but for the grace of god go you or I.

What should be paramount following any misadventure is to uncover the core data and glean some substance from it... not slack speculation… but some objective analysis of what triggered the chain of events and kept them rolling to the unhappy ending. If in doing so we are able to define what may have been causal and what was unimportant or at least of only mild importance, we can then focus future efforts in a direction that will result in the most beneficial outcome.

Some good will come from this incident if the final outcome fixes something that was broken. Right now, we don’t know what was broken… at least I don’t and nor does Ron Irvine… although he is trying very hard to find out.

Ron called me today and we sat and had a tea together this afternoon here in Unionville. He is walking around but looks very weak, has some physical discomfort from the internal injuries he suffered on the Lillie, and is emotionally damaged. He was disarmingly candid describing the events as he experienced them.

Robert Connell is dead and it goes without saying that we all regret that.

I’d suggest what we need to do now is think about how to turn a tragedy into a useful illustrative episode in each of our diving careers.

[snuggle]

seems to fall short often??well would someone like to tell me what people are supposed to say to a family who has just lost someone to a divinf accident or any accident for that matter??lets get real here...can we go and undo whats happened?no we cant..anyone can rant and rave about lessons to be learned but it doesnt change what happened and wont prevent further deaths either unfortunatly...all we can do is be prepared ourselves in case we run into an emergency underwater and that comes from practicing our skills over and over again...and hope that by doing that it will keep us safe to dive another day..

[wolf eel]

[snuggle seems to fall short often??well would someone like to tell me what people are supposed to say to a family who has just lost someone to a divinf accident or any accident for that matter??lets get real here...can we go and undo whats happened?no we cant..anyone can rant and rave about lessons to be learned but it doesnt change what happened and wont prevent further deaths either unfortunatly...all we can do is be prepared ourselves in case we run into an emergency underwater and that comes from practicing our skills over and over again...and hope that by doing that it will keep us safe to dive another day.]

Prime example of falling short would be your rant here.
Most do not understand how others feel and I have nothing but sympathy towards the people involved. I feel very bad for the family and the instructor he now has to live with it. And all the speculation but that comes with it.

Your right nothing will bring anybody back but to be able to talk about it helps and is OK and for others to be crictical about what happened is also OK.

Again I am sorry about the lose.
Derek

[snuggle]

wolf eel.with due respect it isnt ok for someone to be critical of something someone may have or may not have done when all the facts arent known..that in itself is wrong..its so easy to blame someone when something goes wrong..

[wolf eel]

[snuggle
wolf eel.with due respect it isnt ok for someone to be critical of something someone may have or may not have done when all the facts arent known..that in itself is wrong..its so easy to blame someone when something goes wrong..]

When I lost my older brother I felt like crap but it was in the public and the world knew about it. I learned that it was OK for everybody to speculate about what happened. I was even mentioned in the paper as being there and unable to help . That too this day makes my eyes tear up when I think about because had I been there I would have a older brother. Nobody did anything to help except one but that person requiered another and that person was afraid he was a coward. Thats why I am one of those who will do what ever it takes to try for real. And I mean whatever it takes. But to shut others down because they would like to look at what happened and be crictical is wrong that only helps your sense of saddness. I never really feel all that bad for the "survivors" they are alive and with time will get over it to a point. The dead guy however is dead and that is who I feel bad for. I have seen no blame I have only seen many people say how they see it thats OK because thats how they see it. Most people never see things the same even when it is right in front of them.

The one person in this case I do feel bad for is the instructor he has to live with whatever did happen.
Cheers Derek

[Butch103]

Doppler, I wasn't aware that Ron suffered any injuries. I hope they have no longterm effect on him. I understand the emotional damage may last a lifetime.

[Doc Intrepid]

I'm unaware of the details regarding the incident that Steve is referring to.

Regardless, in certain cases post-accident 'analysis', if you use the word guardedly, can be beneficial. Case in point is the young woman who drowned in Palau when she clipped her reef hook to her BC in a strong current. Despite the details regarding the current that day, the buddy separation, poor judgement on the part of others involved, etc., there was one glaring lesson learned that day at least for me and I suppose a few others who may travel to Palau. Hold your reef hooks in your hand. Don't clip them off to your BC. I'd never heard of a reef hook prior to reading of that incident, however, in retrospect, given that the currents generated there are one reason for boats to take groups there, it appears to be a bad idea to anchor oneself to the bottom in strong current. Anyone who read that thread would arrive at the same conclusion.

Ergo, some post-accident discussion can be revealing. There is some benefit to be derived, in some cases, by examining what occurred - providing it can be identified. There is no need to name the woman involved. But discussing what happened to her may, indeed, spare another tourist from the same fate.

I'm in favor of framing lessons in terms of what occurred to those who didn't heed them. Sheck Exley contributed greatly to cave diving safety when he did just that in 'Basic Cave Diving'. There is no reason why it can't work in other forums, provided it is presented properly and moderated to prevent reactions from descending into unproductive flamefests.

[Doc Intrepid]

(sic)...anyone can rant and rave about lessons to be learned but it ...wont prevent further deaths either unfortunatly.....

Sorry Snuggle, I disagree.

It is possible to create teaching points from other's deaths.

It is done in the military, in teaching hunting, in teaching mountain climbing, in teaching kayaking, and so forth. Lessons can be learned from the deaths of others that can keep divers alive also. Lessons such as air supply planning, running lines from points of entry during penetrations, and - see above - not clipping oneself off to a reef hook in severe current.

If you cannot at least learn something from the mistakes which resulted in someone else's death, then their death has been pointless indeed.

[Saudi-Diver]

I am a member of bsac and we are required by club rules to report any incidents to our govening body they are published on the club site at www.bsac.org/techserv/increp03/intro.htm Some of the incidents are very sobering ie there but for the grace of god go I. but most are the result of people ignoring the warning signs and pressing on in the face of mounting difficulties