Power: modified flutter kick VS Frog kick

[Avic7]

Just wondering, I am using the flutter kick that a newbie usually uses, one kick cycle can take me pretty far so that I kick, float a distance and kick.
Right now I am wondering, which gives you more distance, one kick cycle of modified flutter kick? Or one kick cycle of the frog kick? For the modified flutter kick, do u have to constantly kick or do you just kick and relax?

Am I making any sense or do I sound like I am rambling?

 

[Hyper-limits]

Just wondering, I am using the flutter kick that a newbie usually uses, one kick cycle can take me pretty far so that I kick, float a distance and kick.
Right now I am wondering, which gives you more distance, one kick cycle of modified flutter kick? Or one kick cycle of the frog kick? For the modified flutter kick, do u have to constantly kick or do you just kick and relax?

Am I making any sense or do I sound like I am rambling?

I always just kick and relax, I would have to say that a well done frog kick will get farther than a modified flutter.

 

[scubasean]

Just wondering, I am using the flutter kick that a newbie usually uses, one kick cycle can take me pretty far so that I kick, float a distance and kick.
Right now I am wondering, which gives you more distance, one kick cycle of modified flutter kick? Or one kick cycle of the frog kick? For the modified flutter kick, do u have to constantly kick or do you just kick and relax?

Am I making any sense or do I sound like I am rambling?

I use a frog kick...Kick and relax...makes diving quite enjoyable...the idea is to see things, meaning that you don't need speed...

 

[HammerNoMore]

Just wondering, I am using the flutter kick that a newbie usually uses, one kick cycle can take me pretty far so that I kick, float a distance and kick.
Right now I am wondering, which gives you more distance, one kick cycle of modified flutter kick? Or one kick cycle of the frog kick? For the modified flutter kick, do u have to constantly kick or do you just kick and relax?

Am I making any sense or do I sound like I am rambling?

Yea, you make sense. Personally I think it depends on the individual. I find that that a frog kick gives me much more than a flutter. This is based on personal testing against Cozumel currents.

James

 

[Marek K]

Personally I think it depends on the individual. I find that that a frog kick gives me much more than a flutter.

Well, I hope this will be my year to finally learn a frog kick. So, no, I don't know how to do it yet -- though I understand (I think) how it's done.

It doesn't seem, though, that a frog kick would be as efficient as a flutter kick. In a flutter kick, you're using your fins square to the direction of motion -- there's no diagonal component; you're pushing water pretty much straight back. And you're getting a power stroke (did I just use that word?) during both down and up movements.

With a frog kick, the're no way, I don't think, you've ever going to get your ankles turned so that the fins are square to each other on the power stroke. Which means that you're pushing water up, as well as back.

Which may actually be what you want to do, to keep from churning up the bottom.

Hmmm... On the other hand, with a flutter kick, you do seem to be pushing water downward too... that's why, if your trim isn't right, you can be horizontal during finning, and feet-down when you're not finning.

I agree what's important is not how fast you're swimming, most of the time.

--Marek

 

[lamont]

why do you need power?

most of the time i'm just doing modified frog or modified flutter kicks. with those kicks you mostly just flick your ankles, which reduces muscle effort of the kick down to near zero. which helps your SAC rate. you wind up seeing more and staying down longer by slowing down and not kicking as hard as you can all the time.

the only problem with those kicks is that since you're not working your muscles, you get colder. i was diving at this time last year in 200g and used flutter kicking to stay warm (and al80s so i didn't dive longer than about 30 mins). fast forward one year and my SAC rate is half of what it used to be, i'm routinely doing 60 min dives and i'm chilly in 400g thinsulate...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It doesn't seem, though, that a frog kick would be as efficient as a flutter kick. In a flutter kick, you're using your fins square to the direction of motion -- there's no diagonal component; you're pushing water pretty much straight back. And you're getting a power stroke (did I just use that word?) during both down and up movements.

With a frog kick, the're no way, I don't think, you've ever going to get your ankles turned so that the fins are square to each other on the power stroke. Which means that you're pushing water up, as well as back.

Which may actually be what you want to do, to keep from churning up the bottom.

Hmmm... On the other hand, with a flutter kick, you do seem to be pushing water downward too... that's why, if your trim isn't right, you can be horizontal during finning, and feet-down when you're not finning.

That's not exactly how it works.

With a flutter kick ... even a modified flutter ... there is (as you've observed) a downward component. This is why most divers who flutter tend to silt up the bottom. This is also why divers who don't have good buoyancy control can manage to keep off the bottom if they keep kicking ... the flutter kick pushes you upward as well as forward.

Another thing to keep in mind a flutter kick gives you no power on the up stroke ... the up stroke is what's known as "loading the fin". All your power comes on the down stroke.

With a frog kick, loading the fin occurs when you bend your knees and bring your fins up toward your torso and outward away from each other. When you extend your legs and bring your fins together, you get power from both fins simultaneously. This is why you get a better "glide" out of a properly executed frog kick than you do from a flutter kick.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hoyden]

A good way to answer this question for yourself would be to go to your pool with snorkel gear and do some lap swimming - count kick cycles per length with each style kick and compare. I use about half as many frog kicks as flutter kicks per length.

Jackie

 

[Marek K]

a flutter kick gives you no power on the up stroke ... the up stroke is what's known as "loading the fin". All your power comes on the down stroke.

OK, I can see that, the way our ankles bend.

With a frog kick, loading the fin occurs when you bend your knees and bring your fins up toward your torso and outward away from each other. When you extend your legs and bring your fins together, you get power from both fins simultaneously. This is why you get a better "glide" out of a properly executed frog kick than you do from a flutter kick.

OK, but the glide may be simply because you're stroking with both legs at the same time. More thrust with both fins together, and you have to glide when you're done with the power stroke. Seems, though, that you're then going to be generating at least some backwards thrust -- no matter how skilled you are -- as you're loading both fins again simultaneously... moving the fins forward as you re-cock your legs. Doesn't seem like that would happen with a flutter kick... like you said, on the up-stroke, there's (practically) no propulsive power -- but also certainly no backwards thrust.

How about my other question... that with a frog kick, it seems like you're not going to be able to get your ankles twisted enough to get your fins vertical on the power stroke, as they're moving toward each other horizontally? I'm watching the famous DIR frog-kick videos, and it looks like even those guys only manage to get their fins that way maybe half the time... the other times, the fins are at maybe a 45-degree angle, particularly at the beginnning and end of their stroke. Because of that, it would seem like the frog kick would have a significant downward thrust component on your legs -- tending to rotate your head upwards... though I don't see that in the videos. Matter of skill and flexibility?

--Marek

 

[Avic7]

Do you guys use ankle weights? Does it affect your stroke?
Also what about bending your knees? Do u you think you can get rid of your ankle weights once you bend ur knees to do the frog or modified flutter kick?