Aren't "100" Dives enough!?!

[LoCz]

This subject keeps cropping up all over the place so i thought that i would start a new thread.

I have noticed that a "few" of you have made it known that you dont think a 100 dive minimum is enough in order to become a competent instructor. Can those people explain properly why they feel this.

When i ask someone why i usually get this response " if i had a choice of learning with an experienced diver with 200 dives + then i would choose that diver over someone who only had 100 dives". Well as far as i am concerned i would and will be, looking for an instructor that has a very good ability to explain things in plain english and grinds all aspects of safety into his students. Also i will expect him to continually "push" his students until they are 100% confident in a particular area. This is more important to me than an instructor who has over 200/500 dives, for example. Obviously there are other qualities that an instructor must have but i wont go-on and on.

I intend to be a "hard" instructor when i graduate with my IE and i certainly wouldnt pass anyone who i didnt see fit to dive. I will have had around 30-40 dives all over the British coast before i go-on to Florida to train from AOW right through to the IE. I will endevour to set very high standards for myself as a diver and for my students.

Theres one thing that seems a bit strange to me and that is on the subject of learning and teaching PADI specialities. Before i say this let me make it perfectly clear that i am as yet uncertified as a diver and i have no experience of how rigerous PADI speciality training is. But it seems after you have been taught "cave diving" in 2-3 days that you are then able to teach this type of diving to whomever wants it. On the face of it this doesnt seem to be enough training to me in what is (IMHO) a very hazardous environment. In asking these Q's it will also help me further understand "what" people really want from a good instructor.

What are your Opinions on this guys?!?

 

[Kevin]

I agree with everything that you have said. 100 dives gives you a lot of experience from which you can then teach. As you said it is more important to be able to pass on the correct way to do something and just because you have several hundred dives in does not mean that you can do this. Experience does not make a good teacher.
I think that it is more important to have up to date knowledge on the subject rather than a lot of dives and old certification.

 

[Dee]

First, I applaud you for your intentions. And from your previous posts, I don't think you'll take anything I say as criticism to you personally. I am only a PADI divemaster and my thoughts stem from my experiences up to this point in my diving. So...

As you aren't a diver at this point, there are things we experience as divers that you just do not and can't fully understand at this point. Yes, it's a fun sport but you are also taking your life in your hands, and trusting your life to someone else. You don't fully understand that statement until you've been there. The training we desire, in order to dive safely, should be taught by someone you have full faith and confidence in. I cannot and will not have that confidence in someone without them having the experience to back it up.

You describe the type of instructor you intend to be. I'm sure all instructors strive for the same thing. But the experience you get before attaining that rating will only make you a better one. It's not the number of dives so much as it is how you have learned to deal with everything that may and do happen during a dive. You can learn all you can about the logistics of dealing with panic and emergencies from studying the material but it's only when it happens to you personally, underwater, that you truly learn how YOU will handle it and be able to pass that knowledge on to others. I do not want someone teaching me a skill (for want of a better word) who only knows about that skill through study. I want someone who has been there, done that, and knows exactly what I'm feeling and can anticipate what will happen next because they have experienced it themselves. This can be anything from panic, OOA situations, narcosis, vertigo from low vis, etc. You may think that within 100 dives you will have that experience. You may if you do those dives in lots of different environments, but you probably won't.

Having the "very good ability to explain things in plain english" does not necessarily mean that person is a good instructor. Of course it's important but it's the experiences that person has been through that allows him/her to truly teach, not just explain how it should be done. Good instructors don't "grinds all aspects of safety into his students". He teaches by example, knowledge and patience.

As for those specialties you spoke of, when I want training in overhead environments, or whatever, I want the instructor to be very experienced. Not to have just done the minimum number of dives in order to get his specialty teaching certs.

Reading what I've written, I think maybe there are two things being addressed here. Minimum number of dives required in order to teach basic open water and number of dives preferred to teach specialties. Either way, it's the experiences you'll encounter that will make you the better instructor along with the ability to "explain things in plain english".

Just my .02

 

[Mario S Caner]

Dee,
Very well said, I agree with you 100%.

LoCz,
It's great that you're so ambitious and motivated, those are two great qualities. Often time the difference between dreaming and succeeding is mapping out your short and long term goals, and then proceeding to take calculated steps towards them. So, in my opinion you are on track there too...

What Dee is saying, and I've explained to you before is that you currently do not have a frame of reference as to what diving is like, so therefore the picture you're drawing in your head might not be entirely accurate. At this point you just have to accept that you don't know what you don't know yet.

At 100 dives, you are still in the process of learning a thing or two about diving. Then there is the issue of whether or not you are an effective teacher. It's one thing to be good at something, it's a totally different thing to be able to teach it. Teaching skills are not immediate, you pick up a thing or two along the way there too. So, over time, you become better and better. No one can deny that. Improvement (hopefuly) is the constant. The variable however is where you start... that we won't know until you get there... Take your time LoCz, all the peices will fall into place soon enough.

Mario

 

[Warhammer]

Originally posted by Kevin
Experience does not make a good teacher.

Perhaps not....but what it does do is make a good teacher a better teacher. And Dee done an excellent job of summing up my views on this subject. So I don't have much to add.

 

[LoCz]

The qualities of an instructor that i listed are probably not the best examples i could have mentioned. I agree with you Dee but what would you call enough experience?

Hmm the plain english quote wasnt so good either : / lol
But what i ment by "grinding", and i think you misunderstood, is that the students would understand the material to an extent where they and myself would become 110% confident. For example all safety aspects should become a habit ...second nature. I didnt mention "how to grind this info into them, but as you said "by example knowledge and patience".

Rick sums it up nicely by saying that experience makes a good teacher a very good teacher.

So what im really trying to do s listen to experienced opinions so i can plan my instructor training. From what i have read and talked about with other divers is that once in an instructors position, especially in a resort, very little time is actually spent diving. Therefore i feel that i will probably need more than 100 dives before i take a job. Lets see..well i will betaking my open water cert soon and after that i will probably do around 40 dives all around the British coast and also Ireland. Then after this ( about 1-1 and a half years time i plan on going to Florida to take a live aboard trip where i will do a further 30 dives in 10 days. Immediately after this i then plan on taking the 3-3 and a half month course upto instructor level. I will be teaching scuba full time (hopefully).

At the end of this course i will have about 30 specialities.
But like Dee said i also think that to be able to train specialities, especially cave diving for example, you should at least dive caves on a regular basis. Would i be right in thinking that once you have a cave diving cert but you never actually cave dive, lets say over a period of 2 years, you are still certified to teach cave diving to whomever asks for that training from you? Would you br obligated as an employee to teach this individual, even though you know that you have very little experience in that area?

 

[Mario S Caner]

LoCz,
If you take a look at the PADI specialties, Altitude, Boat, Cavern, Deep, DPV, Drift, Dry Suit, Nitrox, Equipement, Project Aware, Ice, Multilevel, Night, PPB, Research, S & R, Hunter, Naturalist, Navigator, Photographer, Videographer, and Wreck: It requires 52 dives just to get certified in them as a specialty diver.

There are two ways to get certified to TEACH these specialties.
1) Attend a specialty instructor training course with a Course Director. In which case you will still need 10 dives in each.

2) Certify 25 divers to any level and then apply for each documenting that you've done 20 dives in each.

Since there are about 22 specialties you can get certified in without authoring your own... it will require more dives than I think you may be aware of. You can only count a dive as one dive, i.e. if you happen to dive a deep wreck at night with a camera while carefully observing aquatic life, you can only count one in your log book for the purpose of using for your experience requirement. It's all for the common good though, this should give you plenty of diving experience. If you want to hone your skills even more, try completing some of that training here in SoCal where the conditions are more demanding.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Mario

 

[LoCz]

This is paart of the course showing the specialities Mario

PADI MASTER SCUBA DIVER TRAINER (MSDT)
The MSDT is actually five (5) Specialty Instructor courses conducted over a period of five (5) days. The Master Scuba Diver Trainer Course is designed to train Instructors how to organize, market, and conduct the following PADI Specialty Instructor Courses:
1. PADI Wreck Diver
2. PADI Deep Diver
3. PADI Underwater Navigator
4. PADI Night Diver
5. PADI Search & Recovery Diver

PADI Nitrox Instructor
EANx Blender/DNAx Technician
TDI Rebreather Diver
TDI Rebreather Instructor

Dive Boat Operations
Compressor Operations
Equipment Maintenance & Service
Resort Scuba Programs
U. W. Photography
Store Environment Workshop
Coral Reef Ecology
Multi-Level Computer Diving
Advanced Diving Accident Management
Orientation to Resort Employment
Orientation to Nitrox Rebreathers
Recompression Chamber Field Trip
Underwater Comms

I got confused about learning specilaities and actually been taught how to tech specialities to other people, sorry

But you can see all the specialities i will be doing

 

[Dee]

"I agree with you Dee but what would you call enough experience?"

LoCz, I don't think there is such a thing as "enough experience". Adequate experience maybe. And I can't give you a set answer on that. One's gathering of experience depends on alot of things...one's attitude, comfort in different situations (which can change daily), ability to retain information and put it into practice, etc. Your abilities are different from mine, which is different from Mario's, which is different from...everyone else.

You are asking us to put strict number guidelines on something that has so many variables. I'm afraid by mapping out such a strict and fast plan to achieve the level of Instructor, you are going to miss alot along the way. Yes, by all means have a goal. But slow down a bit and enjoy the journey as you make it. Instead of planning your instructor training down to the number of months it could take, plan on advancing your training at your own comfort level. Concentrate all your energies to be the best you can at whatever level you are learning, make however many dives it takes at that level for you to be confident in your skills, then move on to the next. You'll be surprised at how all this will fall into shape once you get started. You'll find your own rhythum without having such a strict schedule to try to adhere to.

Mario and the other instructors will have to help you on the specialties. But I don't know any instructor that teaches them all. There's no way you could stay current in experience and knowledge of all the specialties in order to properly teach them...at least I don't think so! I know I did't take instruction from anyone who doesn't dive the specific specialty I'm was interested in on a regular basis. To me, that's just common sense.

 

[Rick Murchison]

This is a subject with no definitive answers. A certain level of experience beyond basic qualification in a subject is necessary in order to teach the subject effectively, but not really that much. A love for teaching, a burning desire to see your students learn, a firm grasp of the subject matter and communications skills are important. And patience, patience, patience. In-water Scuba instructing also requires good observation skills to intercept and relieve stress early, before problems develop. And while lots of dives helps, the most competent instructors are those who have been intimately involved with the process of instructing.
Bottom line, 100 dives is plenty, if those dives have been predominately in pursuit of the instructor rating. Someone who just "has 100 dives" but hasn't been in the pipeline needs to get more experience...
Rick