War graves

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Loopy Diver

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The government here is trying to stop people from diving war graves. I can understand that they would want to do that after all it is respectful to leave the dead alone.
Some people are saying though that it is unfair to do this as it is most of the wrecks around the British Isle which have deceased on board. Divers say that they only want to dive them and not plunder them.
What do you think?
 
I think those who want to restrict access will always fall into two categories. The vast majority are not divers and have no idea what they're dealing with. The others are divers who are in a position to make sure the law will be written to restrict access to all *but them.*
Rick
 
Originally posted by Loopy Diver
The government here is trying to stop people from diving war graves. I can understand that they would want to do that after all it is respectful to leave the dead alone.
Some people are saying though that it is unfair to do this as it is most of the wrecks around the British Isle which have deceased on board. Divers say that they only want to dive them and not plunder them.
What do you think?

I would suspect that knowing the reputation of divers it is simpler to ban rather than than control diving.

Lets face it, the people you find here might be happy to look and not remove. but you just have to look at some of the wrecks to see just how badly they have been vandalised.

Oban - the Breda - first time I went there 9 years ago there was a lot of stuff to see on her, gradually over the last 10 years it has all gone - last time I went there there I couldn't even find one of the funny old fashioned rubber trainers they had 1000's of aboard.

Red sea - Thistelgorm - even with the prohibition on bringing things up from this wreck, it is now a shaddow of its former self ( OK the steam engines are still there, it's a bit difficult to get an old steam train in the goody bag)

Andrea Doria - somewhere just off the coast of the US - look at any number of the andrea doria websites, in every single one, there are stories of peolpe who have died because they just *had* to get some china. OK china isn't too bad, but when all that is gone, then what? they will start bringing other things up. Dive it in another 15 years time, and what will the wreck be like?

If you have seen the video available of HMS Royal Oak (scapa - a war grave) that was taken when the navy dived on her it is almost pristene, and she is only in about 30m of water. The reason she is in pristine condition is that divers haven't been allowed to go down and remove things, and the navy / coastguard DO watch to ensure that no boats drop divers on her.

Personally I would LOVE to dive on this particular wreck, however, to avoid having divers rip it to shreads I will have to make do with the navy video.

Since ALL navy / airforce objects below the sea still belong to the Navy / airforce, it is upto them to decide what rules apply. The UK govy has decided on a no diving, so even if you don't agree, you can't dive it.

No matter what you think, they own them, they can say who dives on them.

Another good example is the Luisitania, this is a deep wreck just south of ireland, It is owned by an american, who has a policy of approving trips there. AFAIK a trip led by suitably qualified people isn't turned down, provided they promise to leave it as they found it.

Note for americans - the UK culture of taking bits of brass or anything moveable off wrecks if FAR worse than anywhere else in the world. Most wrecks in the UK have now had nearly everything removable removed. There are groups of divers who spend a lot of time and money to find pristine wrecks for the SOLE PURPOSE of removing souvenirs. To highlight this - one of the training lakes sank a boat there less than a year ago, it has now been quite badly vandalised (http://www.saa.org.uk/news/WreckAmnesty.pdf)

To prevent all wreck diving being banned in the UK, the MCA, MOD and all sorts of other people are trying to get more a culture of look, dont pry (ie pry off large lumps of brass with a large hammer + chisel). But they have all openly said that if things don't improve, legislation to ban ALL wreck diving is on its way.

sobering thought.

Jon T
 
I can understand why non-divers and divers would like to restrict our diving on certain wrecks due to the loss of others on this wrecks however:

It is basically down to the fact that some "divers" can't keep their hands to themselves. I have dived some great wrecks and while swimming round and investigating it I couldn't physically imagine taking anything from it because:
1) it's taking away someone elses enjoyment of seeing it
2) as I look round I think about what happened when it sunk and I couldn't imagine taking something away from it's resting place.

If some divers could keep there hands to themselves then the rest of us would have a much better case against the government to fight against this rule.

At the end of the day, I believe it is a lot down to the non-divers who dont know what they are talking about. They are (in my opinion) slightly jealous of the fact we get to see something they don't.

I can see where some come from if they lost loved ones etc however, don't you think it is a bit late. These wrecks have been dived on since the boat sunk - what difference does it make for it to continue? By now, the divers who do take things have probably taken most things off of the wrecks already - it makes no difference to them now.

I believe we should be able to dive these sites. And if the government is so worried about divers damaging or taking things then they should employ other divers (divemaster etc) who can actually dive with people on these wrecks to ensure all rules are upheld.

If they set up each council with a contact divemasters/instructors who can accompany divers who apply to dive on such sights then there shouldn't be a problem.

 
Originally posted by ScubaBaby


These wrecks have been dived on since the boat sunk - what difference does it make for it to continue? By now, the divers who do take things have probably taken most things off of the wrecks already - it makes no difference to them now.


No wrong.

A lot of the war graves have NOT been dived by civilians.

Wrecks like the HMS Royal Oak in Scotland are monitored very closely, about 6 months ago some divers were caught on it having removed portholes. They ended up in court with fines of about £10,000 each, and a suspended gaol term of about 2 years. If you can see recent video of the Royal Oak, it is in PRISTINE condition.

A lot of the people pushing for the right to dive on them ARE the people removing brass etc.

The BSAC has a list of clubs that are heavily involved in 'salvage', so I suspect that any pretence otherwise by these divers is seen for what it is.

The UK is heading towards a ban on wreck diving, I will try and find the relevant documentation to show that the MCA is pushing the UK govt. to BAN wreck diving altogether, IF the general attitude towards the marine law is observed. This has been started with the amnesty on reporting wrecks, and items recovered from them that haven't so far been reported.

Marine law at this point includes
1) reporting to the receiver of wrecks
2) ownership of wrecks
3) responsibility of making sure wrecks present no hazard

There are plenty of good wrecks around, there is only one really good war grave in the UK (the HMS Royal Oak), so why all the bother anyway?

Jon T

PS the navy still owns ALL sunken ships, and it tries to fly the white ensign from all sunken war graves at least once a year - they get Navy divers to dive down and tie a new flag to the ship.
 
Jon you are in France right? Well can you get BBC2 because there is a GREAT series on about diving ship wrecks,allover the world. The last one was about sunken pirate ships off the coast of Venezuelan coast 300 years ago. If you get a chance to watch it dont miss it. Its called "Journeys to the bottom of the sea". It gives alot of info on all aspects of diving too.
 
Aegir,

I can probably get it on cable, but I don't have that at the moment. I can certainly get World, News 24, BBC Gold, but not sure about 1, and 2.

I do have, however, my other half still in birmingham. I will ask her to record it for me, and get the videos next time I am over.

Have I missed much? I've got (or have seen) a fair proportion of what is available to buy on video. Would much rather do the dives, however, from what I have seen, the level of plundering over the last 10 years, means the dives I do now, aren't the same as the ones I remember from 9 or more years ago.

such is life.

Jon T
 
turnerjd:
Andrea Doria - somewhere just off the coast of the US - look at any number of the andrea doria websites, in every single one, there are stories of peolpe who have died because they just *had* to get some china. OK china isn't too bad, but when all that is gone, then what? they will start bringing other things up. Dive it in another 15 years time, and what will the wreck be like?

Who cares? As long as humans navigate the seas, new wrecks will be created. It's a renewable resource.

turnerjd:
Since ALL navy / airforce objects below the sea still belong to the Navy / airforce, it is upto them to decide what rules apply.No matter what you think, they own them, they can say who dives on them.

UNLESS their strategic rivals have better underwater technology. Look up "Glomar Explorer."
 
Renewable resource sort of however the number of ships sinking is dramatically less than it was even 40 years ago with modern safety equipment and such.

2 world wars have contributed a lot of wrecks, we may not have another one (unless bush remains in charge!) and in general large scale naval conflicts are not a very common occurance these days.

Yes, we may be depositing some new wrecks all the time but the number will be lower than before.
 
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