Looking for Advice on BP/W

[jwllorens]

I am comfortable in the water but I have very few logged dives and do not yet own all of my equipment. I want to invest in gear that is durable, will last, and I will not replace if I move into other types of diving (which is thus far my intent once I reach about 10 to 15x as many logged dives.)

I have been renting my BCDs and regulators thus far, and I have found that I dislike how the jacket-style BCDs have a tendency to force me to go upright in the water. Some have a rear dump valve that is hard to reach which can make it obnoxious to try and dump air when in a head-down position. Some even seem to completely lack any attachment points where I can clip on a light or sausage. This has led me to consider a BP/W. I also like the idea that I can easily switch to doubles if I decide to in the future without purchasing an entirely new BCD, and just replacing the wing. Uncluttering my underside (chest and stomach) would be nice as well, as I really don't want all sorts of pockets and nonsense getting in the way of my light, sausage, or camera. But the options for BP/W setups are a bit overwhelming, especially for a novice diver such as myself.

1) What are the differences between the different harness styles, and which is best suited for comfort in the water and adaptability for alternate diving setups in the future?

2) Most BCDs are capable of providing enough lift for two divers should one experience equipment failure at depth. How much lift would be recommended to minimize the size of the wing yet still retain this capability, even in freshwater?

3) What weighting options are available for this type of setup, and what would be recommended for maintaining better trim and buoyancy? I currently have a weight belt but I have read of weight pockets being a possibility for the harness, and I have had better success maintaining a horizontal posture with the clip on weights with a jacket BCD, but I do not see how or where the weight pockets would attach on a harness nor do I know if they would provide the same benefit that I experienced with a jacket BCD.

 

[RJP]

Main difference in harness styles is:

Standard "hog/dir" harness, which is one continuous piece of webbing (plus crotch strap) and what is considered by many folks to be all the D-rings anyone would ever need:

Alternately there are a range of "deluxe" harnesses which tend to contain lots of buckles and clips and pads and straps and such...

It's easy to imagine that people might think/assume that more buckles and straps and pads and clips might make for a more comfortable rig. Personally, I found the opposite to be true. Not only does more stuff necessarily mean more comfort, but in fact more stuff increases the likelihood that SOMETHING will be in the way, sitting oddly, resting on your collarbone, etc, etc.

The typical exceptions to the "single piece is best" advice are people with range of mobility issues (bad shoulder, etc) or people with very skinny or very wide body types where a sternum strap can help prevent the shoulder straps from sitting oddly.

I've found no need for padded straps, and I dive double steel 119 rig that weighs well over 100lbs.

 

[Keith.M]

Welcome to ScubaBoard.

First, you don't mention where you are from and so we can't determine what type of diving you are doing. Cold, warm, wetsuit, drysuit...

I am using a basic hogarthian harness. I would suggest that you start with the same. It is by far the cheapest and you can even make it yourself with webbing, tri glides, d-rings and a buckle for not very much money.

If you decide in the future that you want to try a more elaborate harness, you can do that and from a financial point of view, it didn't cost you much with your first purchase.

I dive cold water in a drysuit. I have two wings I use, 32# and 30#.

In addition to the plate and other hardware on the harness, I use 10 lbs. on a cam band and 10 lbs. on a weight belt.

I have really liked the weight belt in the past, it is a rubber freediving belt and is depth compensating. However, that was more applicable to my wetsuit. Now with my drysuit, I am a bit concerned about damaging the zipper so have been considering adding the same type of pockets that I have on my cam bands, to the waist belt on the harness. I would look to add one behind my left side D ring and the other on the right side and hold it in place there with a tri glide. May even add another d ring there for added security.

I have not dived this new configuration yet (without weight belt), but I will be giving it a try.

 

[rhwestfall]

90% of folks can utilize the "simple" harness. The other 10% benefit as (1) body shape may benefit by the "pivot ring", (2) mobility impaired may need a harness that eases doff/don, (3) some just "need" the words "deluxe" because, well.....ummmm, yeah......

I too use weight pockets on the waist band.... its not a crime....


edit:

in regard to the statistics presented, they have no actual basis, but a "opinion" on the overall proportional difference - its large

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Shoot me your email and I'll send you a copy of my BPW article for new divers. I need an email address. It's 11 pages with photos and too big to PM.

 

[Kmart4321]

Meant for PM

 

[cool_hardware52]

I am comfortable in the water but I have very few logged dives and do not yet own all of my equipment. I want to invest in gear that is durable, will last, and I will not replace if I move into other types of diving (which is thus far my intent once I reach about 10 to 15x as many logged dives.)

I have been renting my BCDs and regulators thus far, and I have found that I dislike how the jacket-style BCDs have a tendency to force me to go upright in the water. Some have a rear dump valve that is hard to reach which can make it obnoxious to try and dump air when in a head-down position. Some even seem to completely lack any attachment points where I can clip on a light or sausage. This has led me to consider a BP/W. I also like the idea that I can easily switch to doubles if I decide to in the future without purchasing an entirely new BCD, and just replacing the wing. Uncluttering my underside (chest and stomach) would be nice as well, as I really don't want all sorts of pockets and nonsense getting in the way of my light, sausage, or camera. But the options for BP/W setups are a bit overwhelming, especially for a novice diver such as myself.

1) What are the differences between the different harness styles, and which is best suited for comfort in the water and adaptability for alternate diving setups in the future?

2) Most BCDs are capable of providing enough lift for two divers should one experience equipment failure at depth. How much lift would be recommended to minimize the size of the wing yet still retain this capability, even in freshwater?

3) What weighting options are available for this type of setup, and what would be recommended for maintaining better trim and buoyancy? I currently have a weight belt but I have read of weight pockets being a possibility for the harness, and I have had better success maintaining a horizontal posture with the clip on weights with a jacket BCD, but I do not see how or where the weight pockets would attach on a harness nor do I know if they would provide the same benefit that I experienced with a jacket BCD.

One of the key benefits of a BP&W is less *stuff*

I'd encourage you to avoid the temptation to take a simple BP&W and turn it back into the Jacket BC you are trying to leave behind by adding complex harnesses, weight pockets, extra dump valves, combo octo inflators, pads etc.

Less is more. Keep in mind that once you lose the inherent buoyancy of your current jacket bc and add the ~6 lbs of plate and harness typical of a Stainless Steel Back plate your requirements for "other" ballast will be far less, usually about 10 lbs less than you are currently using.

If you'd like some help determining how much lift you need for you application let me know. You are welcome to call me at 626-799-5074.

Tobin

 

[Divedoggie]

Our company teaches new students exclusively in BP/W rigs.
We have 14 complete setups in the rental fleet. 12 are continuous webbing DIR setup. 2 have the "comfy harnesses." The comfy harnesses are sloppy and ill fitting. Non of our Instructors or DMs reach for the comfy harness unless we have a full class and are forced to use them. In fact, after writing this, I'm going to go out to the shop and switch those last two harnesses out to continuous webbing!

I also highly recommend the Deep Sea Supply rigs. Definitely check out the website DeepSeaSupply and call Tobin personally, as he invites you to do in the post above.

 

[TSandM]

As with everybody else, I'd recommend starting with the simple harness. It's cheaper, and you can always trade up if you become convinced you really can't make do with the one-piece setup.

There are a number of options for weights. Deep Sea Supply, cool_hardware52's company, makes bolt-on weight plates for their stainless plates, that add 8 pounds to your back. My husband uses them and likes them a lot. They can be removed if you are ever doing warm water diving and don't need the ballast.

You can put weight pouches on the cambands. I have two, and put 4 pounds in each. It has the same effect as the weight plates, but I can take my weights out to swap tanks or move the rig around on land.

You can put "integrated weight" pockets on the waistband. Some come with the left-hand pocket designed to have a D-ring on it for your SPG. Mounting one on the right makes using a light canister difficult, but if you are not using a light with a canister, it may not bother you.

Weight belts work fine with backplates, and your belt will be significantly lighter for having somewhere between 5 and 14 pounds of your ballast on your back, plus losing a couple of pounds of positive buoyancy from the padding on the jacket. Or you can use a weight harness, like the DUI Weight & Trim, which is what my husband does.

Lots of options, and what you do will depend a little on how much total weight you need, and how you find it needs to be arranged to make a horizontal position effortless.

 

[jwllorens]

Great replies. So it looks like I should look for a hogarthian style harness, as it is simpler and doesn't have a bunch of stuff all over it and cheaper. I am fairly tall and slim but I don't think I have a "special" body type that would require anything different from the next guy.

Don't worry about the combo octo/inflators and all that, I have had my fun with those after being offered one during air sharing exercises in the pool with them. I am mostly looking to clear up my frontside (or underside in the water) so that everything I bring with me in the water is quickly within reach and I don't have a big inflated flap or something getting in the way, prolonging the time it takes to retrieve or put something away while the BC makes me go vertical in the process.

I dive in both fresh and salt water at the moment, but mostly in tropical warm salt water. I recently did a dive in a quarry with a buddy and we were some of the few divers without drysuits, so we really couldn't go below 40ft. I do want to do more dives in colder water, but I don't have a drysuit and will invest in that long after I have everything else. Most of the diving opportunities offered by my local training facility are in warm water, but I hope to dive in colder conditions in the future (reefs are beautiful, but not really the reason why I am diving. If anything, I have less fun when diving a reef because I am worried about finning some coral the entire time). Basically, all my diving in the immediate future will be warm water with a wetsuit, but I want to do cold water drysuit dives in the more distant future.

I am a little confused on some of the terminology specifically regarding weights. What is a cam band? How are weight pockets added to the harness (as in how do they attach?) And most importantly to me, what impact do the different styles of weighting have on trim? I use a weight belt now and it tends to get loose during a dive and slide down my hips a bit, which further exacerbates the tendency to be in an upright position during the dive. I also want to be able to release at least 50% of my weight in an emergency, and it sounds like many of the options do not allow this.