Mach V: Signature or Razor

[shekes]

I am in the process of buying my very first set of equipment and I'm pretty set on buying it all from scubatoys. Here is what we have agreed on:

A-Pack Harness System
Mach V - Razor Wing
SS Travel Backplate
Sausage Weight Pocket
Deluxe Medium Weight Pocket
Mares MR 12 Abyss
Viper Octo
Mares MC2 RGBM Console

I am a recreational warm water diver and I am starting u-videoing with a VX2100 soon.
My most important criteria are mobility and comfort.

My dilemma is: Razor or bladder? (Let's assume they cost the same. I read hundreds of posts and I understood that bladder is stronger). What I would like to know is: How much difference in drag and comfort is there between the two? And how much (drag) difference between 18lb lift and 30?

Secondly, can I do without the plate or is it a wobbly business?

Additionally, I would like to know how Mach V behaves on the surface. Lets say, I am left behind in rough seas for four hours; will the wing exhaust me, turn me on my belly and drown me? Or will it be similar to floating in a jacket?

[xiSkiGuy]

A-Pack Harness System
Mach V - Razor Wing
SS Travel Backplate
Sausage Weight Pocket
Deluxe Medium Weight Pocket
Mares MR 12 Abyss
Viper Octo
Mares MC2 RGBM Console

I am a recreational warm water diver and I am starting u-videoing with a VX2100 soon.
My most important criteria are mobility and comfort.

Are you a local diver or do you fly to destinations?

My dilemma is: Razor or bladder? (Let's assume they cost the same. I read hundreds of posts and I understood that bladder is stronger). What I would like to know is: How much difference in drag and comfort is there between the two?

I imagine the difference in drag between the 30lb Razor and 30lb Sig is minimal. But the 30lb Razor is pretty new, so not too many people have tried it. I'm not really sure how there could be any difference in comfort between the two. The Razor will pack smaller, though.

And how much (drag) difference between 18lb lift and 30?

There is a difference in the two, but both are very streamlined. Overall like my 18 Mach V Razor better than my 30lb Mach V. What wetsuit are you wearing? What tanks do you typically use? How much weight do you carry?

Secondly, can I do without the plate or is it a wobbly business?

The better question is "Can you do without the A-Pac"?

Additionally, I would like to know how Mach V behaves on the surface. Lets say, I am left behind in rough seas for four hours; will the wing exhaust me, turn me on my belly and drown me? Or will it be similar to floating in a jacket?

It's a vicious killer, waiting to strike. Don't turn your back on it! Wait. . . uh, you have to! :11:

Back inflates do not float you quite like jackets do (high out of the water and squeezing the life out of you), but they won't drown you at the surface, either.

[shekes]

Are you a local diver or do you fly to destinations?

I fly and weight is an important factor. I left it out because it is not a crucial one.

The Razor will pack smaller, though.

I already said that I read hundreds of posts and I even called Oxycheq. So I know that much. Could you be a bit more specific?

What wetsuit are you wearing? What tanks do you typically use? How much weight do you carry?

I carry 4kg weight but I am reducing. My cam+housing might be negatively buoyant (cant tell 'cause I didn't get the housing yet) and I dive with a torch once in a while. I also thought: since I need weight anyway why not buy the signature?
Tanks? Whatever they give me in a dive center.
I live in Ireland and wetsuits are prohibitively expensive here. I figured a wetsuit is something I should definitely try on first. So I'll probably buy it in SE-Asia, 3 to 5mm.

The better question is "Can you do without the A-Pac"?

What do you mean? Please elaborate!

Back inflates do not float you quite like jackets do (high out of the water and squeezing the life out of you), but they won't drown you at the surface, either.

Again: I did a lot of research and talked to Oxycheq. Could you just describe how it behaves please? Fully inflated, half-full etc. Where would you put more weight. These are kinda things I'd like to know.

Can you explain why you prefer the Razor?

[xiSkiGuy]

I already said that I read hundreds of posts and I even called Oxycheq. So I know that much. Could you be a bit more specific?

Umm, if you read hundreds of posts and called Oxycheq, I'm not sure what I can add. You're aware that because the Razor has no inner bladder it occupies less space and packs smaller than the Sig. What more can I say?

I also thought: since I need weight anyway why not buy the signature?

I think you are confusing dry weight with buoyancy. The wing you pick will not affect how much ballast you need.

What do you mean? Please elaborate!

You can't go wrong with any of these options. If you end up diving steel tanks with a thickish wetsuit, the 18lb Razor might not be enough lift. You also seem concerned about floating at the surface. If I were you, I would get the SS Travel Plate, a simple Hogarthian harness, a Single Tank Adaptor, some XS Scuba weight pockets, and the 30 Mach V Razor. This setup will pack very small and very light.

Again: I did a lot of research and talked to Oxycheq. Could you just describe how it behaves please? Fully inflated, half-full etc. Where would you put more weight. These are kinda things I'd like to know.

I float just fine with the wing only partially inflated. If I want to get higher out of the water, I inflate the wing a bit more and lay back on it. How YOU will float and where YOU will need weight are individual issues that you will have to discover yourself.

Can you explain why you prefer the Razor?

I prefer the 18lb Razor because it is so narrow and so streamlined that it is like using nothing at all. Trim is easy. Dumping gas is easy.

I also like it it because I mostly use it in the Carribean where I'm wearing a .5mm suit and there is a umbrella drink waiting on me when I'm done!:14:

[Scubastud16]

Razor is a bladder with no "protective shell"....less to deal with. No zippers to get jammed, etc. It's smaller because of the gussett system they use on the sides.

I'm not familiar with what the A-pack system is, but I think he's referring to just getting a back plate and wing. I'm going with the Razor 30 because I will continue to move up in exposure suit thickness and tank size as my diving abilities increase. I could do with the 18 for now, but the 30 will suit me better in the long run.

You do not fully inflate a back-inflate system at the surface. That will almost GUARANTEE you to go face first in water. Usually 1/4 full will keep you afloat, depending on circumstances.

[xiSkiGuy]

I'm not familiar with what the A-pack system is, but I think he's referring to just getting a back plate and wing.

A-Pac: softpacks

[shekes]

What more can I say?

A lot! People tend to love what they have (spent money on) and not that many people have both Razor and Signature. So just the fact that you prefer one to another is good to know. But, and that's what I was trying to say: if you it'd be more useful if you were more specific: How much smaller?

I think you are confusing dry weight with buoyancy.

OK, wouldn't be the first time...

The wing you pick will not affect how much ballast you need.

Why not? If it is the same wing plus bladder that's heavier than water it should. Now if you tell be that even the plate won't, I'll give up diving.

I would get the SS Travel Plate, a simple Hogarthian harness, a Single Tank Adaptor, some XS Scuba weight pockets, and the 30 Mach V Razor. This setup will pack very small and very light.

If you could explain why, I might just do it. But WHY?
Small is beautiful. Is Hogarthian harness comfortable? What's wrong with A-Pack?
Why an STA? Oxycheq and SB claim Mach V doesn't require an STA.

[xiSkiGuy]

A lot! People tend to love what they have (spent money on) and not that many people have both Razor and Signature. So just the fact that you prefer one to another is good to know. But, and that's what I was trying to say: if you it'd be more useful if you were more specific: How much smaller?

Just to be clear: I have the Mach V 30lb and the Mach V Razor 18lb. I do not have the new Mach V Razor 30lb. I cannot tell you how much smaller the Mach V Razor 30 is when compared to the Mach V 30. Check out Floater's threads on wing size and his new thread about the Mach V Razor 30.

Why not? If it is the same wing plus bladder that's heavier than water it should.

What, like maybe 0.001 lbs?

Now if you tell be that even the plate won't, I'll give up diving.

The plate certainly will count as ballast. The SS Travel plate will take 2lbs off your weight belt. An Aluminum plate would do the same thing. A standard SS plate will take about 6 lbs off your weight belt. A STA will be about 2 lbs, but it depends on which one you buy (it could be more or less).

If you could explain why, I might just do it. But WHY?
Small is beautiful.

The SS Travel BP with a Razor wing will pack very small!

Is Hogarthian harness comfortable? What's wrong with A-Pack?

I think Hog harnesses are plenty comfortable. They might not be quite as comfortable as the A-Pac for standing around in, but I spend most of my time under the water. The Hog harness will pack infinitely smaller than the A-Pac or any other BCD-like harness. The A-Pac will impart a more traditional BCD-like feel as far as the adjustments and padding go. It will take up more space in your luggage and the padding does require more weight to sink.

Why an STA? Oxycheq and SB claim Mach V doesn't require an STA.

It doesn't require a STA, but it works much better with one. The tank and wing are held more securely to the plate and the STA takes weight off your weight belt.

[shekes]

Scubastud,
Thank you! I manged to miss your post earlier.

You do not fully inflate a back-inflate system at the surface. That will almost GUARANTEE you to go face first in water. Usually 1/4 full will keep you afloat, depending on circumstances.

Thank you! That is another reason to get the 30... ... or maybe the 40?

[shekes]

xiSkyGuy,
Thanks! I emailed ST with inquiries on equipment you suggested.

Any other suggestions, ideas or observations?