Considering BP/W switch and need input

[TSandM]

I really can't imagine what you would add to a warm water single tank rig that would significant change your lift requirements. Lift does change with steel tanks, doubles, and stages, and obviously with heavy exposure protection. But adding a light or camera or goody bag won't change your lift requirements -- although I suppose a big haul of lobsters might!

[cool_hardware52]

I really can't imagine what you would add to a warm water single tank rig that would significant change your lift requirements. Lift does change with steel tanks, doubles, and stages, and obviously with heavy exposure protection. But adding a light or camera or goody bag won't change your lift requirements -- although I suppose a big haul of lobsters might!

The typical gear "add" is switching from a buoyant al 80 to a negative steel cylinder. That generally adds ~6 lbs of ballast and increases the maximum negative of the rig (full cylinder) by 8-10 lbs.

Tobin

[TSandM]

I guess I didn't view moving to a different kind of tank as an "add", but rather a major change. I don't know how the OP views it.

[cool_hardware52]

I guess I didn't view moving to a different kind of tank as an "add", but rather a major change. I don't know how the OP views it.

Fair enough, just reporting what I often see as divers progress. They move from rental al 80's to their own steel cylinder.

Tobin

[Blue Sparkle]

Right now i'm mainly diving warm water, in a rash guard with 3lbs of weight on and that seems to be about perfect for me (5'9", 135lb for what its worth). so i basically am looking for a wing that can give me at least 18lbs of lift and beyond that the extra lift is unnecessary unless i'm adding stuff to my rig? just trying to see if i'm following this correctly.

So far, all of my diving has been in warm water. Mostly in a dive skin or 3mm, occasionally in a 5mm. I have a small steel backplate (just under 4# negative) and a ~18# wing and it has worked out quite nicely. I really enjoy the thin/streamlined/"just right size" aspect of it, so I'm glad I sized it specifically for warm-water diving.

With this set up, an aluminum tank, and a dive skin, I'm typically only carrying around 4# of additional weight -- I'm basically neutral to very slightly negative with a full AL63 or AL80, and the weight is added just to compensate for the weight of the gas I'll breathe. I am a fairly buoyant person, so your usage might vary a bit, but probably not too much (?)

With a steel tank (I usually dive with aluminum tanks), I did watch the tank/buoyancy numbers to make sure my rig would not be too negative. At a certain point I would/will probably need to get a larger wing, but I don't think I would trade for an "all-purpose" size to begin with. I'd rather have one that is just right for what I do most/all of the time, and then buy another "just right" one if/when the time comes.

Others are certainly more expert than I am (and I have not dived cold water), but since my usual set-up is just about what you are considering, I thought I'd chime in.

Blue Sparkle

[lulubelle]

I guess I didn't view moving to a different kind of tank as an "add", but rather a major change. I don't know how the OP views it.

That change was made years ago in my case, shortly after I started diving offshore here as i felt that the AL 80s that most ops were renting were not adequate. And it was a major change. I went to the quarry and checked out my new configuration before going out to the ocean. I only dive AL tanks when I am traveling.

[racerx_]

since my usual set-up is just about what you are considering, I thought I'd chime in.

Blue Sparkle

Thanks!

[fjpatrum]

Lulubelle, in case you're still wondering what size wing to get, let me point you to this fantastic thread, since no one else seems to have remembered it: The "Ultimate" wing lift calculator :)

I have a "homemade" wing that has about 18-20 pounds of lift. I use 16 pounds of lead in 14mm of neoprene in cold fresh water and I used about 2 pounds in shallow diving in FL (BHB and LBTS) with a 4/3 full suit. In NC I would expect to use about 4-6 pounds and add my 5/3 hooded vest to my 4/3 suit. I always use AL80s. If I used steel 100s, I probably wouldn't need any weight in NC, like you. I dive a steel plate, I think a Salvo, with a two piece STA that adds about a pound, and a one-piece harness.

For what it's worth, I was diving a Genesis Phantom before I got my plate. My Phantom was about 8 pounds dry and significantly bulkier when traveling (and in the water). My plate, with STA and harness, weighs about 6 pounds and literally packs as flat as the plate allows, leaving me a lot more room for other gear in either my checked bag or my carry on bag.

Personally I'd still go with a steel plate, even for travel. It's only a couple pounds extra over the AL and provides that extra ballast when you're diving colder water.

As for different brands, I've only dived a DiveRite and my homemade wing. Both are plenty sufficient. I will say, I think the argument for full donuts/torroids versus a "horseshoe" shape make good sense. Similarly, a symmetric shape (my wing is an old collar so fatter on the "bottom") is a major plus. DSS makes good quality gear and Tobin definitely stands behind his product with the customer service he provides. I've heard a lot of negative stuff about Oxycheq wings, but I'm not sure of the driver behind that. I seem to recall customer service complaints being the biggest issue. Dive Rite makes good gear that I hear is well supported. I almost bought the 4th Element Trianta wing from Diverightinscuba because it was the right price, despite location of the dump valve. (Ended up buying a camera instead...)

When it comes down to it, like Flotsam said, a plate is basically a plate (assuming it fits). Hole patterns do make some difference but I haven't seen it to be significant in my limited experience and discussions at dive sites. The same can be said for wings. All the manufacturers use basically the same process, and the same materials. Some people will argue that Cordura 800 (or 1600 or whatever material) is better than Ballistic Nylon (or whatever material) but for most people's purposes (IE people not doing extreme penetrations etc.) they are all sufficiently durable.

I made my wing using Cordura that I've used for mountain climbing gear that has lasted through far harsher conditions for over a decade. Almost everyone uses the same type of thread too, so the argument for stitching is a red herring. If any of the big manufacturers have a stitching problem, you got a lemon, it's not a matter of overall quality of their product line.

So basically, what I'm saying is buy a wing that is the size you need and base your decision of manufacturer on factors that are important to you, be it price, features (like fully removable cover or placement of dump valves), customer service or whatever but quality really isn't a major factor, if we're being honest. For me, I primarily shop for diving gear by price (hence the homemade wing...) so several brands are automatically out of the running. If price is not an issue (there's not a huge difference between the cheapest and most expensive brands) then you have more options available.

[BVickery]

The plate brand is pretty much irrelevant. It's a bent piece of metal with some slots and holes. If you go with a single harness (one piece of webbing and a buckle), the manufacturer is also mostly irrelevant, although I would recommend a good metal buckle, not plastic.

The wing is a different story. There are a ton of different styles, sizes and lift capacity and everybody beleive theirs is The One True Way. I'll just stay out of that one.
flots.

Adding to the discussion late. I would agree to a point. The point I start to disagree is when it comes to people or are very much outside the 'normal' sizing of stuff. I'm 6'7 and actually thought I was golden w/ a regular DR Stainless BP. Turns out, was to small, had an experienced Tech Diving Instructor actually helping me out in the fit dept. and said it was to small.

So company like DSS is like the only recourse for me (save for making my own plate) to get a proper fitting BP.

[scubafanatic]

Lulubelle, in case you're still wondering what size wing to get, let me point you to this fantastic thread, since no one else seems to have remembered it: The "Ultimate" wing lift calculator :)

I have a "homemade" wing that has about 18-20 pounds of lift. I use 16 pounds of lead in 14mm of neoprene in cold fresh water and I used about 2 pounds in shallow diving in FL (BHB and LBTS) with a 4/3 full suit. In NC I would expect to use about 4-6 pounds and add my 5/3 hooded vest to my 4/3 suit. I always use AL80s. If I used steel 100s, I probably wouldn't need any weight in NC, like you. I dive a steel plate, I think a Salvo, with a two piece STA that adds about a pound, and a one-piece harness.

For what it's worth, I was diving a Genesis Phantom before I got my plate. My Phantom was about 8 pounds dry and significantly bulkier when traveling (and in the water). My plate, with STA and harness, weighs about 6 pounds and literally packs as flat as the plate allows, leaving me a lot more room for other gear in either my checked bag or my carry on bag.

Personally I'd still go with a steel plate, even for travel. It's only a couple pounds extra over the AL and provides that extra ballast when you're diving colder water.

As for different brands, I've only dived a DiveRite and my homemade wing. Both are plenty sufficient. I will say, I think the argument for full donuts/torroids versus a "horseshoe" shape make good sense. Similarly, a symmetric shape (my wing is an old collar so fatter on the "bottom") is a major plus. DSS makes good quality gear and Tobin definitely stands behind his product with the customer service he provides. I've heard a lot of negative stuff about Oxycheq wings, but I'm not sure of the driver behind that. I seem to recall customer service complaints being the biggest issue. Dive Rite makes good gear that I hear is well supported. I almost bought the 4th Element Trianta wing from Diverightinscuba because it was the right price, despite location of the dump valve. (Ended up buying a camera instead...)

When it comes down to it, like Flotsam said, a plate is basically a plate (assuming it fits). Hole patterns do make some difference but I haven't seen it to be significant in my limited experience and discussions at dive sites. The same can be said for wings. All the manufacturers use basically the same process, and the same materials. Some people will argue that Cordura 800 (or 1600 or whatever material) is better than Ballistic Nylon (or whatever material) but for most people's purposes (IE people not doing extreme penetrations etc.) they are all sufficiently durable.

I made my wing using Cordura that I've used for mountain climbing gear that has lasted through far harsher conditions for over a decade. Almost everyone uses the same type of thread too, so the argument for stitching is a red herring. If any of the big manufacturers have a stitching problem, you got a lemon, it's not a matter of overall quality of their product line.

So basically, what I'm saying is buy a wing that is the size you need and base your decision of manufacturer on factors that are important to you, be it price, features (like fully removable cover or placement of dump valves), customer service or whatever but quality really isn't a major factor, if we're being honest. For me, I primarily shop for diving gear by price (hence the homemade wing...) so several brands are automatically out of the running. If price is not an issue (there's not a huge difference between the cheapest and most expensive brands) then you have more options available.

I'm amazed you'd find it cost justified to manufacture your own wing! I design/build my own custom gear, and I do it because I'm a perfectionist, and I want the best, and I've been diving 10 years so I understand 'intelligent design' versus off-the-shelf crap, but it's definitely more expensive than generic/off-the-shelf standard stuff. With respect to OXYCHEQ wings, IMHO they are the BEST wings on the planet, the EXTREME series are a brilliant design (I own 5 such wings, and a 6th one as a gift to a dive buddy as part of a custom rig I built for her).