Zeagle Tech Express BCD bladder question

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nldiver1984

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Location
St. John's, Newfoundland
Hi all,

A few months ago I made my first big gear purchase and wanted a BC that was both minimalist and something I could use for both warm and cold water diving with a drysuit. I was recommended the Zeagle Express Tech BCD, but there was no mention of bladder sizes, and being clueless about all the technical details of a BC I went ahead and had it ordered. It came with a 24lb bladder but after reading some other threads on here about the bladder size it seems that this size isn't sufficient for cold water. I tried it out yesterday on a shore dive. I had a 7mm regular neoprene drysuit, an AL80 tank, 2 4lb weights in the BC pocket, a 4lb weight on each tank strap, and 16 lbs on the weight belt. Needless to say I wasn't able to descend, and with the BC removed in shallow water it just sank to the bottom with 16lbs on it. Am I doing something wrong or is this BC not meant for this type of setup? I know there are bigger wings I can get but feel that I should've been told about that from the beginning and not just have a BC which can only be used in tropical waters, something that I may do once a year if I'm lucky. I paid $500 for the BC (includes 15% HST sales tax, Canada). I'm 5'8 155lbs if that's of any help. I'm getting frustrated with all of the details needed when making a gear purchase and the fact that I wasn't given any choice in bladder size. I went back to the shop to see what can be done and was told I'd need to buy another bladder, because it's basically a "you wear it you bought it" policy. I couldn't even try the darn thing on before I bought, because they have minimal gear for sale in the shop and most of it has to be special ordered, so the only indication that I do get if gear is a good buy is basing my decision on reviews and getting help from the good folks here on SB.

If I can't use this BC for what I want to use it for then it will be my last purchase of any scuba gear because "feeling in the dark" with expensive gear like this seems to turn out to be just a disappointing waste of money. Also hate the fact that there's no satisfaction guarantee on gear and I can't return it even after one dive. I won't be getting another bladder or BC any time soon so this one will have to do indefinitely.
 
If you were not able to descend, it sound more like a lack of weights than anything else. The bladder isn't there to help you go down...
 
Agree with the above - the bladder on the BC has nothing to do with your ability to descend. If it's empty, it's empty

What determines wing size is the amount of gas in your tank, the change in buoyancy of your exposure protection at depth and where you carry your weight.

24 should theoretically be enough for your gas and 7mm suit - as long as you don't go to 100 feet where a 7mm will be notably compressed and lose a fair amount of it's buoyancy. I personally use a 25 lb wing with a 7mm wetsuit but am very careful to be weighted properly and I never exceed 50 feet diving locally (usually closer to 20). I've never heard of a 7mm neoprene drysuit but I have to assume 7mm neoprene is going to crush and lose buoyancy regardless if it's wet or dry.

However]/, a wing also is supposed to float your BC without you in it. As you found when you took it off, it sunk with 16 lbs of weight on it. -16 lbs plus -2 for a full AL80 plus -2 for regulator is -20 lbs. Add whatever else you are carrying and you might have a wing too small to float your BC if you ever have to remove it.

Obviously everyone's weighting requirements are different but my wife is very similar to your size and she's as corky as it gets (we've had "arguments" with dive shops on how much weight she needs) and she uses 30-32 lbs for a 7mm wetsuit. If you are actually using a 7mm drysuit with air in it, you might need a bit more ballast.
 
i sense your frustration, but there is some information absent from your your description that would help others better understand what is going on, and I think your annoyance may be aimed in the wrong direction.
A few months ago I made my first big gear purchase and wanted a BC that was both minimalist and something I could use for both warm and cold water diving with a drysuit. I was recommended the Zeagle Express Tech BCD, but there was no mention of bladder sizes, and being clueless about all the technical details of a BC I went ahead and had it ordered.
The ET is a good BCD, The standard bladder is a 24lb bladder (specifically noted on the Zeagle website, BTW), although I can appreciate that, as a (presumably) newer diver, you might not have been familiar with the details and significance of bladder size, etc. The ET is great for warm water diving. I have not used mine with my drysuit, simply because I know I need a substantial addition of weight with that suit, and I prefer a 6lb steel backplate, rather than a soft one, like the ET. But, that does not mean it cannot be effectively used with a drysuit.

In your case, WHO 'recommended the Zeagle Express Tech BCD'? Was it your local shop? Did you specifically discuss with them how you were going to use it? Did they recommend against it, but you went ahead and had them order it? Or, did they enthusiastically endorse the BCD after you told them you wanted to dive dry, with a single AL80? Or, did you decide on the ET based on comments on SB, for example, then go to the shop where you were informed they would have to order one, and you told them to do that, without any discussion of your plan to use it with a drysuiit and an AL80?

Also, just to be clear, you seemed to say different things in your OP, and in a subsequent comment
It came with a 24lb bladder but after reading some other threads on here about the bladder size it seems that this size isn't sufficient for cold water. . . . . . I thought 34lb would be sufficient for someone my size.
You ordered, and tried, the 24lb bladder, not a 34lb bladder? Correct?
Needless to say I wasn't able to descend, and with the BC removed in shallow water it just sank to the bottom with 16lbs on it. Am I doing something wrong or is this BC not meant for this type of setup?
It is not clear from your description how the specific BCD - an ET or anything else - you were wearing was related to your inability to descend. So, there is at least a possibility that you are 'doing something wrong'. You were wearing 32lbs of weight, which would seem to be sufficient, although I find neoprene drysuits to be particularly buoyant. (In a trilam suit, with a Ranger and an AL80, I need less than 30 lbs.) As for the second part of the comment, that in shallow water the scuba unit 'just sank to the bottom with 16lbs on it', it is not clear what point you are making. I would fully expect an ET with 16lb of weight attached to do just that, with the bladder DEFLATED. Now, are you saying that, with the bladder fully inflated, it still sank to the bottom? If so, that is a separate issue altogether, but still unrelated to your ability to descend.
I know there are bigger wings I can get but feel that I should've been told about that from the beginning and not just have a BC which can only be used in tropical waters, something that I may do once a year if I'm lucky.
Again, what is absent from your post is any description of your interaction with the dive shop (presumably how you ordered the ET) about what kind of diving you wanted to do, what you would need for cold water diving in a 7mm neoprene drysuit, etc. If you told them, 'I want to use an Express tech to dive cold water, in a neoprene drysuit, with an AL80 cylinder', then I would agree - they should have mentioned that the 'standard' bladder shipped with the ET was a 24lb bladder and that might not be optimal for your intended use, that a larger bladder might be more appropriate.
I'm getting frustrated with all of the details needed when making a gear purchase and the fact that I wasn't given any choice in bladder size. I went back to the shop to see what can be done and was told I'd need to buy another bladder, because it's basically a "you wear it you bought it" policy. I couldn't even try the darn thing on before I bought, because they have minimal gear for sale in the shop and most of it has to be special ordered, so the only indication that I do get if gear is a good buy is basing my decision on reviews and getting help from the good folks here on SB.
Like it or not, there are often some 'details' needed when making a gear purchase. Frankly, that is a good thing. Details such as, 'what is the temperature of the water in which you will be diving', allow you to choose between a 7mm neoprene drysuit - which would be inappropriate for diving 82 degree F Caribbean water, and a 1mm neoprene wetsuit - which would be equally inappropriate for diving 45 degree F Canadian water. Honestly, you probably have issues with your dive shop. Presumably they are a Zeagle dealer (since they ordered the unit for you, and they should know that the 'standard' bladder on the ET is the 24lb unit. They should have at least some Zeagle BCDs in stock, which you could try on - fit within a brand line is usually more consistent than fit across different brands.
If I can't use this BC for what I want to use it for then it will be my last purchase of any scuba gear because "feeling in the dark" with expensive gear like this seems to turn out to be just a disappointing waste of money.
First, it is not clear from your post that you cannot (or can) use the BC for what you want to use it for. But, the comment could easily be interpreted as, 'I am upset because I made was turned out in hindsight to be a less than optimal gear decision. Consequently, I am not going to buy anymore gear. So THERE!' Well, OK, but I have to ask, 'Who will that decision inconvenience? It won't affect anyone here on SB, probably not affect Zeagle, or even affect the dive shop. Only you. Maybe, a btter option is to try again.
Also hate the fact that there's no satisfaction guarantee on gear and I can't return it even after one dive. I won't be getting another bladder or BC any time soon so this one will have to do indefinitely.
Again, the only consequences of deciding that the current unit 'will have to do indefinitely' are to you, not anyone else. Frankly, it may turn out to be a good unit, for you, but that remains to be seen. If you buy an automobile, that turns out to be under-powered when driving in the mountains, which you learn after one trip of 1000 miles, is the dealer going to let you trade it - at the full purchase price - for another. Probably not (even if you are told that is the case). It is now a used car.

But, as noted before, it sounds like the issue may be with your dive shop. It is their decision as to whether to try and work out a 'deal' on another bladder. Frankly, we might not just take the 24 lb bladder back, and order a larger bladder at no additional charge - unless we had specifically recommended the 24 lb bladder for you to dive with a neoprene drysuit and an AL80 cylinder - which we would NEVER have done in the first place. But, we might have, depending on the circumstances. Or, we might order a larger bladder and charge you only what it cost us, even if we had recommended against the 24 lb bladder to begin with (which we WOULD have done). Another option we might have suggested was to move away from the bladder assembly and simply go with a more 'standard' BP wing. There is no universal 'satisfaction' guarantee. Some businesses offer one, but that is their individual business decision.

Frankly, I see several issues at play:

1. It is not clear what your actual problem with the ET was, or even that your use of the ET was correct. I am not saying you necessarily 'did something wrong'. Rather, your description of the problems you encountered don't seem to 'add up'. It seems that you a) had a problem the first time you used the BC, although the problem was possibly a matter of weighting, and b) subsequently read threads that suggested a bigger bladder was more appropriate for cold water diving, and c) concluded that the issue with descending was related to bladder size.

2. The dive shop you used does not appear - at least from your description - to be particularly helpful, knowledgeable, or well-stocked. That doesn't mean all dive shops are like that, rather you happened to use one that is, unfortunately, like that.

3. You might benefit from trying again, while working with a local diver familiar with BCDs such as the ET, doing a proper weight check, and diving the unit - in cold water and in your drysuit - to see if the lift is sufficient, if the rig is fitted properly, if your weighting and weight distribution are optimal, etc. In other words, don't just get frustrated and give up, before exploring all of your options.
 
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Sorry I've been away for a while dealing with other things. Before I ordered the BCD I asked for a backplate/wing setup initially but I also wanted something that I could travel with. I think that's all the info I gave to the shop, the fact that I wanted something lightweight that could be used for travelling. The BC sunk with 16lbs deflated, but inflated it was fine. My suit has been giving me some problems. I bought it used and paid to have the leaks fixed and new seals, but it feels a little loose and it's so difficult to sink. I even had trouble with a different BCD and heavier lead. I think I might try to sell the drysuit and go back to renting one until I can order one custom fit to my measurements, because it seems that second hand drysuits are nothing but trouble.

I want to use the BCD for my rescue course in a couple of weeks. Right now the water is warm enough for a 7mm wetsuit so I'm going to ask if I can try out my particular setup in the pool and see exactly how much weight I need to sink. I like the BCD. It's small and comfortable, though getting the extra bells and whistles in the deluxe edition may or may not have been necessary. such as the quick release buckles and comfort straps, though I could see these coming in handy if I was somewhere warm and not using a wetsuit. I found that without a wetsuit the straps dug into my skin a little, so the pads would have been helpful.

I'm not bashing my LDS for this but I would appreciate being able to try the thing on before I order, but that's not the case here as most things have to be special ordered.

Drysuits are expensive, but for the handful of dives I do in the winter/spring I'm better off just renting one and getting a 7mm wetsuit instead.
 
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