BP/W New Construction - Dilemma

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jkenney

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Location
United States
# of dives
100 - 199
Hello All,

After a year of hiatus, I have decided to re-activate my BP/W project. Last year I obtained a secondhand SS DiveRite plate, some new webbing, a blemished single tank adapter (DiveRite), and the hardware for the webbing. At the time, I was going to construct a DIR-compliant rig to mirror my dive buddy's setup, but the project went on hold when he relocated.

My questions are:
1. Would a 35lb wing be sufficient for use with a steel HP100? The wing I'm looking at is a DiveRite Voyager EXP

2. My LDS is a DiveRite dealer, but has moved away from DiveRite and more towards ScubaPro's X-Tek line. The owner (my boss) is recommending I either grab a Scubapro wing or a complete X-Tek rig. Does anybody have any strong feelings one way or the other on either the Scubapro Donut wing or the X-Tek rig versus the DiveRite?

3. This one is a bit controversial in my shop, but does anybody have any pro/con views of a Hogarthian harness versus an adjustable harness (beyond the advantages involved with KISS)? My concern is my shucking in and out of the rig in my drysuit (I use a Scubapro Evertech with Si-Tech rings permanently mounted on the wrists).

Thanks as always!
 
Hello All,

After a year of hiatus, I have decided to re-activate my BP/W project. Last year I obtained a secondhand SS DiveRite plate, some new webbing, a blemished single tank adapter (DiveRite), and the hardware for the webbing. At the time, I was going to construct a DIR-compliant rig to mirror my dive buddy's setup, but the project went on hold when he relocated.

My questions are:
1. Would a 35lb wing be sufficient for use with a steel HP100? The wing I'm looking at is a DiveRite Voyager EXP

2. My LDS is a DiveRite dealer, but has moved away from DiveRite and more towards ScubaPro's X-Tek line. The owner (my boss) is recommending I either grab a Scubapro wing or a complete X-Tek rig. Does anybody have any strong feelings one way or the other on either the Scubapro Donut wing or the X-Tek rig versus the DiveRite?

3. This one is a bit controversial in my shop, but does anybody have any pro/con views of a Hogarthian harness versus an adjustable harness (beyond the advantages involved with KISS)? My concern is my shucking in and out of the rig in my drysuit (I use a Scubapro Evertech with Si-Tech rings permanently mounted on the wrists).

Thanks as always!

I use a halcyon 18 pound wing with steel plate....and it is fine for steel 100 or for hp120.
It has much better trim characteristics than would the large wings you are considering....you really want the smallest wing you can use, to be neutral at your deepest depth, at dive start. Don't let the dive shop sell you a FREIGHT ELEVATOR!

I will say Dive Rite made some poorly designed wings....one my wife had.....not sure but think it was a transpac.....was about a 40 pound lift wing a shop talked her into, and the worst part was that it had wing tips that would not let out air in the wing when you were horizontal, so this retarded design required you to get vertical in the water column, in order to dump air and get negative or neutral. And they did not have a clue about this stupidity for many years--indicating that Dive Rite does not really know much about wings.....it is also supposedly to be good for letting you dive with one tank or with doubles, and any tech or cave diver would tell you that is a foolish compromise....it is sloppy for diving.

The Scubapro bp/wing is at least a better "copy" of the intelligent design Halcyon came up with in the late 90's....so if you need to buy from this shop, go with the smart copy, not the retarded design.

And I would say don't go over a 30 pound lift wing. With your dry suit, you would not want more than this.....if you could demo a 18-20 pound wing, and then demo a 30 pound wing, that would be what you should be shooting for.
Easy enough to demo in South Florida.....don't know how hard it is where you live.
 
I use a oxycheq bp/w Hogarthian harness set-up with a Worthington HP100.

To this I usually add 10 to 15 pounds of lead in addition to the steel back plate.

So, usually only up to 30 lbs negative at the beginning of the dive.

This is with a Bare drysuit and medium loft under garments.

The shoulder straps are loose enough to slip over my shoulder dump valve, still a little bit of a chicken dance.

Most of the in water stability of the bp/w is from a tight waist belt and crotch strap with the shoulder straps relatively loose.

I would use what equipment you have first before purchasing another wing or set up.
 
1. Yup, only concern would be if sank naturally and used a 7mm farmer john and dove regularly to 70+ft. As you dive dry, 35lbs is actually probably too big *width wise on the 7 inch tank*, but it'll be a non issue.

2. If your boss wants you to dive an X-tek tell him to give you one, if not, Dive Rite didn't technically invent the backplate, but they were the first to sell it and the STA, not that it means much, but there is certainly no reason to go away from them. The DiveRite wings are made in the USA if that matters to you, they're made up in New York, in a small shop that is actually pretty cool. No idea where SP is making their stuff, but likely not the US since they are a Jarden company it is likely in China.

3. I don't like one piece harnesses, I have a body type that is incompatible and I require a chest strap. I personally like the Dive Rite Deluxe harness which if you have any sort of skill with a sewing machine, you can make yourself. You could technically do it with a few slide locks, but I like it because it allows me to use a chest strap, but adjusts like a one piece harness instead of with pull straps.

Lots of people dive with one piece harnesses and if adjusted properly are great for most people even with drysuit rings, but I greatly prefer either a QD on the left shoulder or a chest strap which allows the shoulder straps to be that much longer allowing ease of entry and exit.

If you like the look of the deluxe harness, you need 8 2" slide locks, 6 D-rings *or 5 if you don't put a D-ring on the right hip*, a piece of 550 cord, and a small bolt snap. You can look at the picture below for reference.
https://www.divegearexpress.com/library/hogrigging.shtml
Follow those instructions, but the webbing will be cut in three pieces, one for the shoulders, one for the left lower shoulder and waist, and one for the right. Length of the webbing will have to be determined by you. Chest strap should be right at the nipple line, so the webbing will have to be decently long for the shoulders depending on how tall you are. The hole for securing the shoulders to the plate can be punched with a soldering iron.

The lower shoulder straps in this instance have one inch webbing sewn up over the D-rings in permanent attachment via sewing. This is obviously not required, and can be done with 2" webbing and a slide lock. The 1" webbing sewn in is better, but you have to know how to sew and have a machine that will go through 3 layers of webbing which most people don't have. The 2" webbing just won't bend around the D-ring quite as easily. Lower shoulders and waist strap go in just like a normal one piece harness following the instructions from DGX. You can put a pair of slide locks on the back of the harness if you don't want the shoulders to move, but if you dive in any other sort of exposure protection, then I wouldn't recommend it since you might need to tighten the shoulders up a bit. Make sure to leave plenty of room in the upper shoulders for length adjustment just in case, the second slide lock up top retains it, so it doesn't really matter how far back they go. The chest strap is just a loop of 550 cord around a small bolt snap. Video on how-to below
[video=vimeo;96850067]https://vimeo.com/96850067[/video]


http://www.diverightinscuba.com/cat...c1080-deluxe-harness-scuba-diving-harness.png
won't let me upload, but there's the picture of the actual Dive Rite harness. It's only $55 from DRiS, and probably the same from DGX, but if you already have all of the hardware, it's probably not worth buying a new harness.


hope this helps

Edit: Dan is probably talking about the Rec wing, which is abysmal for single tanks, but actually pretty good for small doubles. If the shop talked her into it, it's the shops fault not Dive Rites, the wing is good, just not in that situation. It now has a crossover in the bottom which some like and others don't for doubles/CCR diving, but you never had to go vertical, just slightly head up to balance the air out. Just leaning your head back was usually enough to equalize the air pocket. Some of them were horseshoes and that design was intentional to allow air packing for trim in unbalanced rigs side to side. I.e. the old canisters that weighed umteenmillion pounds.

The DRiS trianta wing is only $200 and is about 30lbs, which is closer to what you want for that size rig, and is very similar to the Halcyon Eclipse wing. The HOG 23lb and 32lb wings are also quite good at around $250. Voyager wing is probably not the best idea for drysuit diving because it puts most of the lift down around your hips, which is good for single tank diving with weight belts on, but in a drysuit the air in your legs usually tips you head down. Since you're a Dive Rite or SP shop, on the DR side I would recommend the Travel EXP which is 25lbs of lift, and will be plenty with a SS plate, and a drysuit. Would not recommend the Voyager, only because of the way it is built, which again, was designed for transpac divers wearing heavy weight belts, so it put the lift down around their waist to help compensate that. Halcyon designed their Eclipse series based on drysuit divers not wearing weight belts, so the lift is closer to the valve to help pick the valve end of the tank up as well as to counteract the moment created by light feet in a drysuit.
 
You don't say where you are diving, but if you're diving cold water, 18 pounds of life is NOT enough. It's not the tank that's the problem (although that's a small part of it). It's the loss of lift -- or potential loss of lift -- from the dry suit. Generally, 30 to 35 pounds of lift will work for single, steel tanks in cold water.
 
I use a halcyon 18 pound wing with steel plate....and it is fine for steel 100 or for hp120.
It has much better trim characteristics than would the large wings you are considering....you really want the smallest wing you can use, to be neutral at your deepest depth, at dive start. Don't let the dive shop sell you a FREIGHT ELEVATOR!

I will say Dive Rite made some poorly designed wings....one my wife had.....not sure but think it was a transpac.....was about a 40 pound lift wing a shop talked her into, and the worst part was that it had wing tips that would not let out air in the wing when you were horizontal, so this retarded design required you to get vertical in the water column, in order to dump air and get negative or neutral. And they did not have a clue about this stupidity for many years--indicating that Dive Rite does not really know much about wings.....it is also supposedly to be good for letting you dive with one tank or with doubles, and any tech or cave diver would tell you that is a foolish compromise....it is sloppy for diving.

The Scubapro bp/wing is at least a better "copy" of the intelligent design Halcyon came up with in the late 90's....so if you need to buy from this shop, go with the smart copy, not the retarded design.

And I would say don't go over a 30 pound lift wing. With your dry suit, you would not want more than this.....if you could demo a 18-20 pound wing, and then demo a 30 pound wing, that would be what you should be shooting for.
Easy enough to demo in South Florida.....don't know how hard it is where you live.

I have a Halcyon 18lb Batwing and it's marginal with an AL80. Also, it floats you low in the water because all the bladder is on top, so you need to be comfortable with that. I still love it for South Florida diving with a shorty and an AL80, but I couldn't recommend outside that type of diving. Halcyon quit making the Batwing many years ago, for a reason I suspect.

---------------------

Around 20 to 30 lbs of lift is the right range in my mind. Something in the 30lb range will allow more flexibility with exposure protection, steel tanks, etc. I use a 40lb wing for doubles (AL) and deco bottles, so even 35lbs is on the large side.
 
Sorry, I should have specified: I'm diving primarily New England with my drysuit and a heavy undergarment (Fourth Element Halo 3D), and my tanks are singles. I'd like to go doubles in the future (hence the backplate project, I can adjust it down the road should I go that route), but for the moment I would be diving a single steel HP100.
 
Just FYI... you will need a different wing for doubles vs singles. It's not unusual to have two or three wings. I have four.
 
Lynne, loss of lift in a rig like that is 10lbs of rig + call it 10lbs worst case for that tank plus regs. 30lbs is certainly ideal, but a 25 ish lb wing will work since you never actually lose all of the lift in the drysuit and it is unlikely to happen when the tank is full full. Depends on the diver, but I certainly wouldn't go much below 25lbs with it all being non ditchable weight.

To the OP, this is of course all assuming you don't wear any lead in said drysuit wearing a bp/w with that steel tank.... If you're wearing lead, then it becomes a new issue in which case you do need a 30-35lb wing.
 
I have a Halcyon 18lb Batwing and it's marginal with an AL80. Also, it floats you low in the water because all the bladder is on top, so you need to be comfortable with that. I still love it for South Florida diving with a shorty and an AL80, but I couldn't recommend outside that type of diving. Halcyon quit making the Batwing many years ago, for a reason I suspect.

Your right, most divers were not fond of the horseshoe for ease with trim. The 30 ( which is a donut) is the "go to" wing for most of my WKPP and DIR friends.....
I had the 18 pound wing as soon as Robert Carmichael made one...and a 30...I did like the 30, but my wife decided SHE liked the 30lb Halcyon wing better than the Dive Rite she was using, so she took my 30..Same thing happens with my camera lenses :)
..Fortunately, I run very little air into the 18 pound wing on most dives, so the horseshoe effect has never become a problem.
 
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