PADI Cavern Diver Course Changes

[ppo2_diver]

I know many of us have made fun of PADI's cavern course. But it looks like PADI is taking steps to make this a more legitimate course preparing students for further overhead training. Starting in Q1 of this year, there are new changes to the standards for this course.

1) Out of Air drills: OOA drills must be practiced in open water prior to entering an overhead environment. OOA drills are now performed on cavern dives 3 and 4 in an overhead environment.

Previous standard: No OOA drills in an overhead environment.

2) Gas management: Divers must now use the rule of thirds for planning their overhead dives.

Previous standard: Divers must independently calculate turn pressures.

3) Restrictions: Places to narrow to allow divers to pass side by side or piggyback are prohibited.

Previous standard: Nothing about restrictions

4) Cavern Instructor Prerequisite: Instructors must now be FULL cave certified from a cave diving training agency. No word if PADI will accept a GUE Cave 2 card or not.

Previous standard: Cavern instructors only had to be Into to Cave trained

5) Instructor equipment: Cavern instructors must now wear full cave diving equipment including doubles and long hose.

Previous standard: Same equipment as student.

6) Equipment recommendations: Students are highly encouraged to wear BP/W and a long hose. Students are still not permitted to use doubles for the class.

So I think this is a good step in the right direction for PADI, but I don't think it quite matches up with NACD or the CDS. Still doesn't come close to GUE. I really hope this is not in preparation for a PADI full cave course.

[mike_s]

Thanks for the info. Where did you see this released by PADI?


Also, for discussion purposes, I find it odd that they require the instructor to use doubles and to not permit the student to wear doubles. Not every cavern is "equal" and the 130' foot vertical/horizontal penetration rule/limit doesn't always require the use of doubles (by instructor). A requirement for using doubles by the instructor doesn't always mean it's the best choice For the student I guess they are trying to minimalize the students equipment in order to reduce the amount of problems, but I don't think they should preclude someone who has the ability to do the class with doubles.

how do the other agencies compare to these requirements?

[MikeFerrara]

A couple of points.

From the old PADI standards, which are in my lap at the moment, under instructor equipment, I quote...

1. All required student equipment
a. Y valve or double cylinders with dual valve manifold or seperate K valves.
b. Three battery-powered lights.
c. Primary reel and personal safety reel.

Note to instructors: At the present time, the prevailing standard pratice is for cavern diver specialty instructors to conduct the course while wearing "full cave"equipment. This, of course, is only recommended if the instructor has "full cave" and is a regulation that is enforced at many sites.

Additionally, some other agencies not only require full cave certification but the instructor can't qualify on the basis of experience alone. Instructor training includes manditory experience assisting in the teaching environment. I haven't personally witnessed that same type of incidents that I can attribute to this that I have with the obvious defficiencies in other courses but it seems like common sense to me. Just for reference, I was a PADI instructor (including cavern), I am a "full cave certified diver with a little over 100 cave dives (I know, I'm still a noob but that's my experience level). Yet, I don't see what there is anything about being cave certified and having 25 cave/cavern dives that qualifies one to teach in the cave.

Also, under Emergency procedures it states that divers should always keep at least two thirds of their air in reserve for exiting the cave. This is also mentioned under accident analysis.

I guess I don't see it as much of a step in any direction at all. Some minor wording changes? Some type that wasn't bold being made bold? In the interest of really doing what? To let a new cave diver conduct OOA drills with students in a cave? Why not just go all out and put the standards on par with the real cavern/cave training agencies? One reason "why not" would be that they would have to develope a cavern instructor training program and they'd need instructor trainers who could teach it.

You may hope that this isn't a prelude to the introduction of a PADI cave program but my guess is that it probably is. Well, free enterprise and it's a free country and all that.

One more thing I have to say and that's that we can get away with some pretty sloppy stuff in open water. Muck up the bottom, even shoot to the surface (which we see all the time) and you'll usually avoid injury and almost always live. Caves and the inside of wrecks are not that forgiving...not even the tourist caves with thick bright gold line in them.

[Jasonmh]

Thanks for the info. Where did you see this released by PADI?


Also, for discussion purposes, I find it odd that they require the instructor to use doubles and to not permit the student to wear doubles. Not every cavern is "equal" and the 130' foot vertical/horizontal penetration rule/limit doesn't always require the use of doubles (by instructor). A requirement for using doubles by the instructor doesn't always mean it's the best choice For the student I guess they are trying to minimalize the students equipment in order to reduce the amount of problems, but I don't think they should preclude someone who has the ability to do the class with doubles.

how do the other agencies compare to these requirements?

That is a good question. It was my understanding that the NACD and/or NSS-CDS cavern/intro to cave called for singles only. When we were in Mexico in April I was surprised to see that many of the Cenotes had a rule that divers had to be Full Cave Certified to use doubles, anything less than Full Cave was singles only.

[Scuba_Steve]

Interesting post Mike.

I think getting IT's to teach it wouldn't be a big deal. As it is now, CD's with extremely limitted experience in deep diving can already be IT's for DSAT's TecRec Deep program, which is a serious joke, no wait, a serious error in judgement in some cases.

It's all a matter of some time in, a minimum standard, and the extra cash. We all know this is it more or less. AT least I can say that from what I have seen, others wil certainly have a different opinion I am sure of it.

I will be waiting anxiously for the unveiling of Padi's Cave course. It would be interesting indeed if/when you are proven right here.

I agree, I don't see much of a material change with this release, which I have not seen come my way either.

Also true, is the fact that I can teach the Padi cavern course, but I cannot do the same with TDI without further training and experience. Take that for what it is worth.

Regards

[Spratman]

I thought NSS-CDS was changing the requirement for the Intro class. If a student was proficient in the use of doubles, they could use them. However, isn't the real problem that Ginnie will only allow singles?

[Thalassamania]

I fear that it is not a "step in the right direction" since it exposes more people to the possibility of cave diving without begining to integrate them into the cave community. That, I fear, will ultimately result in more accidents and further degredation of the cave environment.

[MikeFerrara]

I thought NSS-CDS was changing the requirement for the Intro class. If a student was proficient in the use of doubles, they could use them. However, isn't the real problem that Ginnie will only allow singles?

I don't know about the NSS but the NACD allows it at least in certain situations. Again, I don't know the details of the standards but I did all my cavern and cave training in doubles (NACD). If I remember right, maybe a cave instructor will step in here, there's a requirement to complete full cave in a certain period of time? I already had some tech training and was doing all my diving in doubles though.

[H2Andy]

maybe Thala and I are saying the same thing, but i just dont see any "cave culture" within PADI. this seems like a part-time thing for them.

i have a gut feeling that you should take tech classes from tech organizations,
and i just don't think of PADI as a tech organization

[H2Andy]

I thought NSS-CDS was changing the requirement for the Intro class. If a student was proficient in the use of doubles, they could use them. However, isn't the real problem that Ginnie will only allow singles?

sorry, my answer was as to the NACD