Diving Risks

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nimoh

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When new OW divers are certified, they are taught some skills and given some rules to follow and it is regarded as pretty safe...if those skills stay current and the rules are followed.

After a while, the diver gets better and seeks more advanced training such as cave diving. The skills such as buoyancy control taught in OW become much more refined, new skills are introduced and the diver is given a set of rules to follow...if these skills stay current and the rules are followed, is the diving really more risky?

I haven't done any research on this, so this is more my impression and would like to hear opinions on this subject. I have seen some cave diving accident reports, and most seem to indicate that some basic rule was breached leading to the accident (and suggests that if the rule was not breached, the accident would have been averted). Perhaps this is a wrong impression and I am open to changing it, but it is currently my impression.
 
Its more risky simply because there are more variables. Most of these variables are under diver control (light, line, gas), but some are not (collapse, silt), and some lie somewhere in the middle (navigation/ cave geography). ALL of those have been contributing factors to cave accidents.

Every time you enter more variables into a dive, the level of risk increases relative to a simple, low variable OW dive.
 
Its more risky simply because there are more variables. Most of these variables are under diver control (light, line, gas), but some are not (collapse, silt), and some lie somewhere in the middle (navigation/ cave geography). ALL of those have been contributing factors to cave accidents.

Every time you enter more variables into a dive, the level of risk increases relative to a simple, low variable OW dive.

As a new OW diver, I struggled to maintain a safety stop. If I had some additional task loading, I would likely be on the surface. Not pretty, but not all that dangerous since OW dives are so forgiving. But now, I can hold my position in the water column without thinking about it, and also shoot an smb and share gas at the same time.

My point is that as we begin to master basic skills, more skills can be introduced without significantly increasing risk. Cave divers are trained in zero visibility exits, and success depends mostly how close to the line they are when it happens, and how good their tie-offs are...which I think is skill related.

Collapse? yes, I'll give you that one as it is inherent to physical overhead diving only, even though it is rare, if it happens, not much you can do about it. So, based on this alone, I would agree that there is at least a little more risky.
 
As for following the line, maybe, maybe not.

The times where you're really on the line, for real, is not quite the same as in training. I've always found the real deal a bit more stressful because of how much is counts. In class, you can always flip your light back on and you're back to normal. Plus, you're on a thick gold line most of the time which is virtually always tightly placed on really solid pie off points. The same can't be said of some #18 twist from two decades ago in a small-ish passage, which is where you're most likely to actually BE on the line for the exit. Ever had a tie off break loose when you're using the Ray Charles Cave Diving Method (tm)? Its not great. Even if you follow all the 'rules', unforeseen circumstances can pop up. Any of those unforeseen situations must be dealt with on the spot. In OW diving, you at least have the option to head for the hills and surface.

Imo, cave training introduces divers to what situations are like, but its heavily diluted from the real thing. Real education comes post-class in the form of experience. The info you get from the class is just enough so that if you go slow, you probably won't kill yourself. Probably.
 
As for following the line, maybe, maybe not.

The times where you're really on the line, for real, is not quite the same as in training. I've always found the real deal a bit more stressful because of how much is counts. In class, you can always flip your light back on and you're back to normal. Plus, you're on a thick gold line most of the time which is virtually always tightly placed on really solid pie off points. The same can't be said of some #18 twist from two decades ago in a small-ish passage, which is where you're most likely to actually BE on the line for the exit. Ever had a tie off break loose when you're using the Ray Charles Cave Diving Method (tm)? Its not great. Even if you follow all the 'rules', unforeseen circumstances can pop up. Any of those unforeseen situations must be dealt with on the spot. In OW diving, you at least have the option to head for the hills and surface.

Imo, cave training introduces divers to what situations are like, but its heavily diluted from the real thing. Real education comes post-class in the form of experience. The info you get from the class is just enough so that if you go slow, you probably won't kill yourself. Probably.

I definitely understand your point about realism. During my class when I was swimming along the line with the blackout mask on, I never once felt any elevated stress, and this can probably be attributed to the fact that I new my instructor was following. If I had let go of the line and started swimming off wherever, he would have grabbed me, and removed the blackout mask. I would have failed, but I wouldn't have died.

I guess what I am focused on is that if the tie-off comes loose, you have the skills to deal with it, if you can remain calm. Since we are talking about line, a new OW diver may get caught up in fishing line, and make things worse trying to free themselves.
 
It's more dangerous, more risk, because it is less forgiving, despite the training.

Any incompetent OW diver can go their whole lives diving and experience some incidents and still live to tell the tale.

However with cave diving etc, incompetence will quicker lead to death or injury...

Training teaches you to mitigate the risks, not eliminate them... And the reality is, there are MORE things that can go wrong in cave diving.. So it is inherently much riskier.. And most ppl associate risk with danger

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920
 
After a while, the diver gets better and seeks more advanced training such as cave diving. The skills such as buoyancy control taught in OW become much more refined, new skills are introduced and the diver is given a set of rules to follow...if these skills stay current and the rules are followed, is the diving really more risky?

"Total Risk" can be seen as some function of "probability of an event" and the "results" if the event takes place.

For example, an OW student may have a higher "chance" of ... say... an uncontrolled ascent, but since they will be relatively shallow and within the NDL's the "effect" may not be serious.

Likewise a technical diver may have a lower "chance" of an uncontrolled ascent but they may be much deeper and well over the NDL's which would make the effect if it did happen much more severe.

So just talking about "more" or "less" risky is tricky. The "chance" can be controlled to some degree (maybe not 100%) with practice and training but the "effect" is very context dependent and can't be controlled very well unless you choose a different context.

In other words, all that is to say that you're comparing apples and oranges.

R..
 
"Total Risk" can be seen as some function of "probability of an event" and the "results" if the event takes place.

For example, an OW student may have a higher "chance" of ... say... an uncontrolled ascent, but since they will be relatively shallow and within the NDL's the "effect" may not be serious.

Likewise a technical diver may have a lower "chance" of an uncontrolled ascent but they may be much deeper and well over the NDL's which would make the effect if it did happen much more severe.

So just talking about "more" or "less" risky is tricky. The "chance" can be controlled to some degree (maybe not 100%) with practice and training but the "effect" is very context dependent and can't be controlled very well unless you choose a different context.

In other words, all that is to say that you're comparing apples and oranges.

R..

I think you articulated it much better than I did, and I agree that it is apples and oranges and very difficult to compare.

My underlying point was just that I don't feel that I am significantly risking my life by cave diving (within my limits). Similarly, I didn't feel like I was significantly risking my life when I took up diving to begin with.
 
Well, all the things that could go wrong in an open water dive, can go wrong in a cave dive -- equipment can fail, you can get lost, lights can fail. You have redundancy to deal with equipment failures, and better skills to deal with other problems, but the fact is that you are under a time pressure in cave diving that you are not in recreational open water diving, because you CANNOT just surface if your coping strategies fail. Therefore, I'd have to say it's still higher risk. I think that, with a respectful attitude and a willingness to follow the rules, the risk profile falls within tolerable for me -- obviously, because I do it!
 
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