ScubaBoard's Policy Regarding Posts Dealing Advocating Diving in Caves without Traini

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boulderjohn

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ScubaBoard feels very strongly that diving in caves without proper training is extremely dangerous, and it does not allow posts that advocate such a thing. When such posts appear in any forum, please report them so that they can be deleted rather than respond to them, since it will be necessary to delete the responses as well. An unfortunate consequence of this policy is that many fine responses that explain why cave training is necessary will be lost, so this post will include an all too brief summary in the hope that those who read it will understand.

In the 5th edition (1979) of his important work Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival, pioneering cave diver Sheck Exley wrote "In 1974 no fewer than than 26 perished in underwater caves in Florida" (p. 4). That is a staggering number. In response to the high number of deaths in caves back then, Exley studied the causes of cave diving fatalities and devised the basis for modern cave training. Today, the overwhelming majority of divers who enter caves have been properly trained, and as a result, it takes many years for all the cave diving deaths in the world to combine to the total of the 26 who died in Florida alone in 1974. Even though it has become very unusual for untrained divers to enter caves, approximately half of all cave diving fatalities come from those few untrained divers. With the remainder, almost all fatalities occurred with divers who for some reason intentionally violated at least one key principle of their training. When divers follow their training, cave diving is a safe sport; when divers ignore training or have not had the training in the first place, it is extremely dangerous.

In cave training, divers learn the many things that can go wrong in a cave. They learn how to prevent them, and they learn how to overcome them should they occur anyway. It is not possible to make all of that evident to someone who has not had the training, so an open water diver who is convinced that he or she can dive in caves safely will not be easily persuaded otherwise. Because things do not always go wrong in a cave, and because some caves are safer than others, such a diver may successfully dive in caves without training a number of times, creating a false sense of confidence. That diver is, however, taking terrible risks.

If that diver chooses to take those foolish risks, there is nothing ScubaBoard can do about it. On the other hand, ScubaBoard can prevent that diver from persuading other ScubaBoard readers to follow that same path. It is for that reason that we do not allow anyone to advocate diving in caves without appropriate training in this forum.
 
While I don't disagree, and I'm not arguing with you, the post begs the question "Where does the Scuba Policing end?" Poorly- or un-trained folks die diving in wrecks, in quarries, in dam outflows, and on boats. Maybe even from shore. If I proudly state that I don't have a DPV or drysuit card, and I gleefully describe my latest DPV or drysuit dive, and advocate that anyone can do it, will those posts get banned also?

John, I'm somewhat busting your balls here, but a forum is a place to come learn for those willing, and a place for others to loudly declare their stupidity. Don't take away an individual right to be stupid, this is 'Murika!
 
Frank,

We allow a broad, broad range of discussion about controversial subjects on ScubaBoard except for two: Learning to dive without an instructor and diving in an overhead environment without the requisite certifications. Of all the Scuba things to discuss and debate, these are the only two that are verboten. We've survived with this in place since the inception of ScubaBoard.
 
Frank,

We allow a broad, broad range of discussion about controversial subjects on ScubaBoard except for two: Learning to dive without an instructor and diving in an overhead environment without the requisite certifications. Of all the Scuba things to discuss and debate, these are the only two that are verboten. We've survived with this in place since the inception of ScubaBoard.

... or at least since the departure of Genesis ... and I think it's a good policy.

It's an interesting objection, Frank, considering the rather stringent rules you've said you impose on your clients with respect to solo diving or using doubles for recreational diving. Either you trust people to use good judgment or you don't. Diving in caves without proper preparation has far more serious potential for a bad outcome than diving doubles on a dive that doesn't specifically require them.

I'm generally of the opinion that we shouldn't be in the business of saving people from their own stupidity. On the other hand, I think there's a big difference between diving a drysuit or DPV without training vs overhead diving without it. Many of the "rules" we learned for diving recreationally simply don't apply once you take away the option for a direct ascent ... and diving in confined or restricted areas without knowing the techniques for finding your way out under a variety of unexpected circumstances is just asking for a bad outcome. And although I think there's some value in allowing discussion of the topic, I can also see the rationale behind a policy that disallows it ... besides heading off the inevitable train wreck, it also reduces the potential liability to said forum owner if someone were to read about it here and interpret such a discussion as advocating dangerous practices. We live in a litigious society after all ... and sometimes you do just have to draw a line about what's acceptable to talk about. In this case, I think that line is drawn at a pretty reasonable place ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
... or at least since the departure of Genesis ... and I think it's a good policy.

It's an interesting objection, Frank, considering the rather stringent rules you've said you impose on your clients with respect to solo diving or using doubles for recreational diving. Either you trust people to use good judgment or you don't. Diving in caves without proper preparation has far more serious potential for a bad outcome than diving doubles on a dive that doesn't specifically require them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

My "stringent rules" for solo are based on insurance company requirements, and follow what you are advocating, you can dive solo, but you gotta have a card. As far as doubles, strictly based on available room on the boat. Yeah, I know the California boats pack on 34 divers with all of their doubles, scooters, fishing poles and kayaks. Looks like a mess to me in the pictures of unsecured or poorly secured gear in piles on the deck. I don't like messes, nor do my clients.
 
John, I'm somewhat busting your balls here, but a forum is a place to come learn for those willing, and a place for others to loudly declare their stupidity. Don't take away an individual right to be stupid, this is 'Murika!

This is not my decision, Frank. It is a long standing policy. We discussed the need to post that policy because, as Pete indicated, it runs counter to almost everything else we do. Yes, your position was recognized, understood, and discussed. What you read as the opening post in the thread was offered among the moderators for amendments, and when there were none, it was posted. It has my name on it because I was the one who posted it. The policy itself, however, is ScubaBoard's.
 
This is not my decision, Frank. It is a long standing policy. We discussed the need to post that policy because, as Pete indicated, it runs counter to almost everything else we do. Yes, your position was recognized, understood, and discussed. What you read as the opening post in the thread was offered among the moderators for amendments, and when there were none, it was posted. It has my name on it because I was the one who posted it. The policy itself, however, is ScubaBoard's.

Therefore, the question was answered by you and by Pete quite to my satisfaction. I never knew ScubaBoard had such a policy, and I now do. I don't find it a bad policy, nor do I find it a good one, it stands on its own merits. I was surprised to see it this morning, though.

I'm curious. Have there been a rash of folks lately advocating cave (or open water) diving without a certification? It's not that I haven't seen it before, but usually they are fringe elements and are hounded to death until they just leave. I'm wondering why the need to make the policy clearer?
 
I'm curious. Have there been a rash of folks lately advocating cave (or open water) diving without a certification? It's not that I haven't seen it before, but usually they are fringe elements and are hounded to death until they just leave. I'm wondering why the need to make the policy clearer?

There have been several in recent months and over the years. The policy came into play a few months ago during such a thread. I myself did not realize it was the policy, and I joined the crowd arguing for the other side rather then moderating it as I should have. That led to a discussion about the policy among the staff. Then a more recent thread came in which a similar discussion was headed off by the moderating staff via private messaging. That is when making the policy public was suggested.

In general, when someone makes such an argument, their position is that cave divers are arrogant and elitist SOBs who overplay the dangers in order to satisfy their sense of superiority rather than keep people alive. When someone comes in with that attitude, they are not going to be dissuaded, because every argument, not matter how sincere and well-informed, sounds like the arrogant elitism they believe exists.
 
ScubaBoard feels very strongly that diving in caves without proper training is extremely dangerous, and it does not allow posts that advocate such a thing.
diving in an overhead environment without the requisite certifications.
Diving without training and diving without certification are not the same thing at all.
As an exemple, in France, till 2010, there was only cave certifications for trainers, not for divers [by French cave or diving federations]. Of course, before that, some divers were trained to dive caves, they just didn't get certifications.
 
It's a sad sign when an internet forum forcefully dictates what people can and can't do and is incapable of being impartial. This is just another policy showing that. Why not let people think for themselves and take responsibility for their own action or let debate sort it out?

This along with paid advertising off dive operators who we have no idea of the quality and criticism of them disallowed really does have a detrimental effect on the overall availability of impartial information.

Maybe SB should have a sticky post outlining ALL the policies and subjects we're not allowed to mention, debate or criticise to avoid moderation wrath?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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