The Ethics of Promoting Cave Diving

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kensuf

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It's a gorgeous day here in Gainesville. I spent yesterday at Twin Dee's helping with the cleanup of all of the safety bottles scattered throughout the cave, and this afternoon I find myself with some free time to peruse the NACD S&P. Interesting point in here..

Unlike the other NACD courses, prospective students may be encouraged to enroll in the Cavern Diver Course. The NACD feels that this course is comparable to other open water specialty classes and will have a significant safety benefit for all active scuba divers who enroll, even if they do not continue to dive in the overhead environment. Promoting students to continue training or diving in the overhead environment beyond this level is a violation of NACD ethical standards.

Emphases added by me. Big thumbs up.


A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

The thread was split from another thread: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cave-diving/502004-cave-training-etiquette-real-imaginary.html
 
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It's a gorgeous day here in Gainesville. I spent yesterday at Twin Dee's helping with the cleanup of all of the safety bottles scattered throughout the cave, and this afternoon I find myself with some free time to peruse the NACD S&P. Interesting point in here..
Unlike the other NACD courses, prospective students may be encouraged to enroll in the Cavern Diver Course. The NACD feels that this course is comparable to other open water specialty classes and will have a significant safety benefit for all active scuba divers who enroll, even if they do not continue to dive in the overhead environment. Promoting students to continue training or diving in the overhead environment beyond this level is a violation of NACD ethical standards.
Emphases added by me. Big thumbs up.
It's my humble opinion that this myopic conundrum is a part of the problem. They might as well change it to "The first rule about Cave Instruction is that you don't talk about Cave Instruction." Training should always be promoted over diving in ignorance. I get that it offends the ego to change this, but it's long, long overdue. If it's not, then every web site about cave diving is in violation of that rule... including this one. It's time to make a transition into the twenty first century.
 
It's my humble opinion that this myopic conundrum is a part of the problem. They might as well change it to "The first rule about Cave Instruction is that you don't talk about Cave Instruction." Training should always be promoted over diving in ignorance. I get that it offends the ego to change this, but it's long, long overdue. If it's not, then every web site about cave diving is in violation of that rule... including this one. It's time to make a transition into the twenty first century.

I think you completely missed the point, and apparently did not read the standards that Rick linked earlier.

It is repeatedly clarified throughout those standards that the public should be warned that cave diving without training is exemely dangerous, and someone interested should seek appropriate training. It is also expressly required that NACD instructors should act as good stewards of the cave diving community by volunteering to provide information about the dangers, and where to seek appropriate training, to anyone that asks it.

Now, as per that statement that I quoted, my interpretation is this:

Making the training available is perfectly allowed. Making people aware of the risks is actively promoted. Making people aware of where they can go to get training is encouraged, and recommended. But actively recruiting people to take up the sport of cave diving in order to sell your wares is against their code of ethics.

I tend to agree with that principle. Due to the risks, cave diving is not something that should be actively marketed and sold.

I think that the view that people should actively promote, market, and sell cave diver training has caused a big part of the problem that the cave diving community is now facing. In my humble opinion, the idea of actively promoting the sport of cave diving is simple hubris, detrimental to the caves and the activity, and completely short sighted.
 
I think you completely missed the point, //SNIP// Making the training available is perfectly allowed. Making people aware of the risks is actively promoted. Making people aware of where they can go to get training is encouraged, and recommended. But actively recruiting people to take up the sport of cave diving in order to sell your wares is against their code of ethics.
Yeah, I got that exact point, and think it's incredibly shortsighted and a huge part of the problem. If you want to limit the number of divers you're going to have to limit the number of instructors. As it currently sits, it's nothing but a Ponzi scheme that encourages a serious bending, if not breaking of the rules. People invest a lot of time and money to be able to teach. If you flood the market, then you've created a situation that depresses the price of becoming a cave diver to the point where corners have to be cut. In addition, you have a number of pretty market savvy agencies who are not playing by the same set of archaic pre-internet rules. Like I said, just change it to "The first rule of cave instruction is that you can't talk about cave instruction". It's far sexier than how it's currently written and you know it's happening anyway.
 
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. But actively recruiting people to take up the sport of cave diving in order to sell your wares is against their code of ethics.

.

If you look at some OW agencies,where you get your basis of instruction,this is something OW instructors are promoted to do, In fact, at the IE, your presentation gets points based on promoting courses. I am not saying I agree with the practice in cave diving, because people should get experience, and comfort before advancing, not from the instructor's marketing effort.

Ken (and any other instructor on this forum)-what are your thoughts on instructors using the ability to guide one level above a person's training. For example an intro diver being taken on a full cave dive with an instructor. I am seeing where guided dives are being paid for with sole purpose of doing a particular dive above their level but not having to get the training to do that dive. Where this was something that was being used as an opportunity to see if you wanted to go to the next level, and perhaps for the instructor to see if the individual was ready,but now it is a paid for guided dive that has a premise based on a goal driven dive.

---------- Post added March 16th, 2015 at 06:08 AM ----------

That means we have representatives from NACD, NAUI and NSS-CDS but still need reps from ANDI, BSAC, IANTD, GUE, PADI, PSAI, TDI and UTD....

CDAA as well
 
what are your thoughts on instructors using the ability to guide one level above a person's training. For example an intro diver being taken on a full cave dive with an instructor. I am seeing where guided dives are being paid for with sole purpose of doing a particular dive above their level but not having to get the training to do that dive. Where this was something that was being used as an opportunity to see if you wanted to go to the next level, and perhaps for the instructor to see if the individual was ready,but now it is a paid for guided dive that has a premise based on a goal driven dive.

The dive you cite is guiding two levels up, not one. It also involves going from a single tank to double tanks; by definition.

The CDS program allows guiding one level up and is written in the standards as follows: Active NSS-CDS instructors are permitted to take students on dives one (1) level beyond the student’s current level of training in the course of instructional or guided dives. The NSS-CDS instructor conducting any such dives shall be authorized to teach the next level of training. The minimum equipment requirements for the next level of training are required on any and all such dives.

When these dives are conducted it is expected that the instructor uses sound judgment. For example the instructor will be using good judgment if he guides a basic cave diver on a dive to a maximum of 1/3 gas supply and one jump if the Basic cave diver has very recent cave dives AND if the instructor has experience diving with this person.

Good judgment comes from two things: Mentorship and experience. The CDS program involves a LOT of mentorship and with that comes experience. There is no proper substitute. Some programs have fast track substitutes and the cave diving community is suffering from this.

Kelly you state that the person doing this dive is not getting the training for this dive. If this dive is conducted properly it will involve topside preparation such as a dive plan, equipment review and a discussion about the difference between the Basic cave dives the person has been conducting, namely up and down the Gold Line with a maximum of 1/6 air supply usage and 1/3 air supply usage and those implications. There must be a discussion of proper techniques/procedures for installing a jump line and properly configuring the lines, arrows and cookies for the navigational decision that must be made upon negotiating that jump during the exit. These dives must NOT be Trust-Me Dives. They should also not just be sightseeing dives. There must be mentorship and learning.

If this guided dive does not involve proper planning and preparation then it is not conducted within the spirit of the standard.

As an aside and something I plan to address later I think the lines between cave diver education and cave diving as an activity have been blurred, and in some cases obliterated. A good cave instructor is an educator, a good cave instructor can not only, for example run a reel in high flow with demonstration quality, but he can also relate with words HOW to do do it and relay WHY be able to do it, and be able to teach his students to do it. Leaving a reel in all weekend does nothing to teach students HOW to do it.


A good cave instructor has stories to tell that highlight WHY things are taught the way they are taught.

A good cave instructor understands the ratio of 60/40 mental/physical mix for cave divers and is able to have a serious philosophical discussion with students about this. I fully believe the 60/40 ratio is accurate and I fully believe that we must relay this ratio to our students.
 
The CDS program allows guiding one level up and is written in the standards as follows: Active NSS-CDS instructors are permitted to take students on dives one (1) level beyond the student’s current level of training in the course of instructional or guided dives. The NSS-CDS instructor conducting any such dives shall be authorized to teach the next level of training. The minimum equipment requirements for the next level of training are required on any and all such dives.




Kelly you state that the person doing this dive is not getting the training for this dive. If this dive is conducted properly it will involve topside preparation such as a dive plan, equipment review and a discussion about the difference between the Basic cave dives the person has been conducting, namely up and down the Gold Line with a maximum of 1/6 air supply usage and 1/3 air supply usage and those implications. There must be a discussion of proper techniques/procedures for installing a jump line and properly configuring the lines, arrows and cookies for the navigational decision that must be made upon negotiating that jump during the exit. These dives must NOT be Trust-Me Dives. They should also not just be sightseeing dives. There must be mentorship and learning.

Thanks for the clarification. So, doing a guided dive for someone outside their initial training is acceptable-didn't realize it covered guiding

If this guided dive does not involve proper planning and preparation then it is not conducted within the spirit of the standard.

The dive I am thinking about included a stage and deco for an intro diver, where neither was done before.
 
Thanks for the clarification. So, doing a guided dive for someone outside their initial training is acceptable-didn't realize it covered guiding

The dive I am thinking about included a stage and deco for an intro diver, where neither was done before.

The dive with the stage and decompression is clearly hubris.:no:
 
The dive with the stage and decompression is clearly hubris.:no:

Hope it really didn't occur,but there was enough bragging by the individual. Dive location was LR.
 
The dive you cite is guiding two levels up, not one. It also involves going from a single tank to double tanks; by definition.

The CDS program allows guiding one level up and is written in the standards as follows: Active NSS-CDS instructors are permitted to take students on dives one (1) level beyond the student’s current level of training in the course of instructional or guided dives. The NSS-CDS instructor conducting any such dives shall be authorized to teach the next level of training. The minimum equipment requirements for the next level of training are required on any and all such dives.

When these dives are conducted it is expected that the instructor uses sound judgment. For example the instructor will be using good judgment if he guides a basic cave diver on a dive to a maximum of 1/3 gas supply and one jump if the Basic cave diver has very recent cave dives AND if the instructor has experience diving with this person.

Good judgment comes from two things: Mentorship and experience. The CDS program involves a LOT of mentorship and with that comes experience. There is no proper substitute. Some programs have fast track substitutes and the cave diving community is suffering from this.

Kelly you state that the person doing this dive is not getting the training for this dive. If this dive is conducted properly it will involve topside preparation such as a dive plan, equipment review and a discussion about the difference between the Basic cave dives the person has been conducting, namely up and down the Gold Line with a maximum of 1/6 air supply usage and 1/3 air supply usage and those implications. There must be a discussion of proper techniques/procedures for installing a jump line and properly configuring the lines, arrows and cookies for the navigational decision that must be made upon negotiating that jump during the exit. These dives must NOT be Trust-Me Dives. They should also not just be sightseeing dives. There must be mentorship and learning.

If this guided dive does not involve proper planning and preparation then it is not conducted within the spirit of the standard.

As an aside and something I plan to address later I think the lines between cave diver education and cave diving as an activity have been blurred, and in some cases obliterated. A good cave instructor is an educator, a good cave instructor can not only, for example run a reel in high flow with demonstration quality, but he can also relate with words HOW to do do it and relay WHY be able to do it, and be able to teach his students to do it. Leaving a reel in all weekend does nothing to teach students HOW to do it.


A good cave instructor has stories to tell that highlight WHY things are taught the way they are taught.

A good cave instructor understands the ratio of 60/40 mental/physical mix for cave divers and is able to have a serious philosophical discussion with students about this. I fully believe the 60/40 ratio is accurate and I fully believe that we must relay this ratio to our students.
I appreciate the explanation of what the intent of the rule was.

It sounds like when this is done, you spend basically just as much of a time on lecture as a class. If this is the case, it blows my mind that someone wouldn't just pay for two more dives and finish the certification.
 
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