Chemlub 800???

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Wow, something is screwy here. I asked the question because I work on high pressure military nitrogen generators manufactured by Bauer in Norfolk. We used to use CL751 in the HP compressor blocks but around 2007 we were advised to use the CL800. I was just wondering if anyone else has tried it other then Wookie. We have one compressor block with almost 6000 hrs on it and we are still on the original valves. We haven't gone into the block or heads at all and the oil only gets changed every year. The compressor is 16 years old. I was wondering if it is as good on BA compressors as it is in the NGers. I followed Wookies thread with his compressor issues and was really floored when he found out it could be the oil. But you just never know how a new product will hold up until it is used in the field or in Wookies case on a boat. You can't base an overall judgement on the oil with the results of only a few units but Wookies case sure seemed to be compelling.
I was wondering Wookie, what percentage O2 were you compressing when you were making Nitrox with those MAKOs. And why you didn't choose a food grade oil like OmniLub or EZ1000?
ZDD

[Wookie]

We cb 32% from a Bob Olsen membrane. I use the Chemlube because it's what was originally specified, I've never burned oil, even in a 120 degree Fahrenheit ambient compressor room, and the air passes OCA testing without hyper filtration. The only problem I've ever had was blowing up 4th stage components due to auto ignition in the 4th stage coil or moisture separator. While chasing the solution to that problem (it happened 3 times on 2 boats) we switched oils. Food grade oils are not necessarily breathing air oils, they are for gearboxes on big bread mixers and such. I think it's UltraChem that has a article on their website about why not use food grade oils in high pressure pumps.

I wonder if Makos run significantly hotter or cooler than a Bauer?

[swamp diver]

Wow, something is screwy here. I asked the question because I work on high pressure military nitrogen generators manufactured by Bauer in Norfolk. We used to use CL751 in the HP compressor blocks but around 2007 we were advised to use the CL800. I was just wondering if anyone else has tried it other then Wookie. We have one compressor block with almost 6000 hrs on it and we are still on the original valves. We haven't gone into the block or heads at all and the oil only gets changed every year. The compressor is 16 years old. I was wondering if it is as good on BA compressors as it is in the NGers. I followed Wookies thread with his compressor issues and was really floored when he found out it could be the oil. But you just never know how a new product will hold up until it is used in the field or in Wookies case on a boat. You can't base an overall judgement on the oil with the results of only a few units but Wookies case sure seemed to be compelling.
I was wondering Wookie, what percentage O2 were you compressing when you were making Nitrox with those MAKOs. And why you didn't choose a food grade oil like OmniLub or EZ1000?
ZDD

Why would you mess with changing an oil that gave you 6000 hours on a block without a valve change? Listen Bauer, both the German and USA outfits, do extensive testing on their recommended compressor oils prior to recommending them to the end user. They run the compressors for thousands of hours and then tear the machines down in order to inspect both metallic and elastomer parts. At the end of the day Bauer Norfolk (USA) recommended the Chemlube 800 and as you have found out it is an excellent oil whether in a BA or nitrogen compressor. In 2007 Bauer USA switched from loading its compressor with a mineral oil to the synthetic across the board. Mineral oil is no longer recommended.

The Chemlube 751 is also an ester synthetic, however back in the early 2000's there were some likley non-significant concerns about phthalate ester concentrations so in order to remove that concern from the equation the CL 800 was developed for Bauer. We've used both oils and like you found that even with annual oil changes or every 1000 hours we get 5000 to 6000 hours between valve and ring changes on a Bauer block if it has supplemental mechanical cooling.

Don't bother with the food-grade oils. That food grade designation has nothing to do with breathing air applications in fact it is a designation from the USDA and FDA that allowed up to 10 ppm of the "liquid" oil to drop into your cookie batter on the production line. At that concentration it was determined that there would be no ill effect to the cookie "eater" and had nothing to do with the respiratory toxicity of a diver breathing the volatiles.

If one looks at the volatiles sitting above the food-grade oils the number and concentration is far higher than in any of the ester synthetics. Even Bob Whiting at Ultrachem will tell you if you have a choice whether pumping air or nitrox to go with the ester and not polyalphaolefin (PAO) food-grade oil. The esters just have better thermal and oxidative resistance in the hp compressor and the PAOs have a tendency to shear and then form sludge and varnish in the hp environment.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Thanks everyone for your responces, all very interesting indeed. I use to own a business that serviced BA compressors "Maximum Air Support" and one of the dive shops here when started bought a new Bauer K14 with a UBS Nitrox Membrane system. The owner called me one day to service the cylinder heads. There was nothing wrong with the compressor but the unit was 6 years old and had almost 7000 hrs on it and he wanted to be proactive and prevent down time during the peak season. I was astonished that he had so many hrs of operation on this with out a snag (other then the Securious system). The oil he had been using since day one was EZ-1000, a synthetic food grade oil sold by UBS. I had made several trips to FLA and to UBS to meet with Bill Delp the owner but I never did find out who he got his stock from. That compressor is still in service and has never been opened up. It must have at least 10000 hrs on it by now.
Just more food for thought.
ZDD

[Ultra Diver]

Thank you to those of you who had kind words for the Chemlube oils.

To Wookie, I don't know what "sales rep" you spoke to, but all of our directly employeed sales engineers know that Chemlube 501, 751 and 800 are either currently in use in BA compressors or have been in the past by various OEM manufacturers. It appears that you may have been misled, and if it was from one of Ultrachem's sales engineers I apologize.

Most H-1 Food Grade Oils for direct contact with food are made from petroleum white oils or PAO (synthetic hydrocarbon) and will not withstand the high temperatures of BA compressors as well as various esters. They will lay down varnish or carbon before esters will.

Ultrachem exports products to over 30 countries, but we are not widely available in many locations as much as we would like to be and we can never compete with Anderol or Shell on the number of outlets worldwide.

[Wookie]

Thank you to those of you who had kind words for the Chemlube oils.

To Wookie, I don't know what "sales rep" you spoke to, but all of our directly employeed sales engineers know that Chemlube 501, 751 and 800 are either currently in use in BA compressors or have been in the past by various OEM manufacturers. It appears that you may have been misled, and if it was from one of Ultrachem's sales engineers I apologize.

Most H-1 Food Grade Oils for direct contact with food are made from petroleum white oils or PAO (synthetic hydrocarbon) and will not withstand the high temperatures of BA compressors as well as various esters. They will lay down varnish or carbon before esters will.

Ultrachem exports products to over 30 countries, but we are not widely available in many locations as much as we would like to be and we can never compete with Anderol or Shell on the number of outlets worldwide.

It would have been the rep for the Houston, Texas area and the engineer he got on the phone. I believe it was you who turned me on to the 800 in the first place.

BTW, I would never use any oil besides Chemlube.

You are welcome to review my order history. I started ordering from Ultrachem in 2002 under the name "Gulf Diving, LLC" and switched at some point to "Spree Expeditions, Inc". That may give you some feel for whom I've been speaking to.

[frogman62]

I've been reading this "book" with interest. For 30 years while an American Bristol dealer, the only oil I used was Anderol 500 and had about 15 Fire Dept compressors with 2500 to 5000 hours on them and only a little carbon problems on a couple. I switched 8 years ago to Summit DSL-100 and have had no issues with any compressor using this oil. In High speed military compressors (3450RPM), I use Mobile Jet II - which CANNOT be used in low speed units.
Interesting discussions guys. I think the marketing guys are winning.
Jim Shelden

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Great discussion and thanks to everyone who responded and it is especially nice to hear from one of the oil manufacturers. I will now go and drain my omnilub and replace it with the Chemlub 800. I would also like to add that I once had to replace the crank shaft bearings and sleeves on a Coltri that had less then 600 hrs on it. They were using Nuvair 455 food grade which I believe is or was at the time Omnilub.
I would also like to hear from other people who use their compressors to compress Nitrox and let us know what oils they are using, and if they have had oil related difficulties.
ZDD

[Peter_C]

I would also like to hear from other people who use their compressors to compress Nitrox and let us know what oils they are using, and if they have had oil related difficulties.
ZDD

Hmmm...I have a Max-Air (Read Coltri) CE90 which is a 10 cfm compressor. I was recommended to run Nuvair 455 and have been doing so since I got the compressor used. Ran a few oil changes in the beginning and now space them out a little longer. I continuously blend 32% with a bank system where the compressor runs for hours at a time, up to 5,000 psi. Never had a problem...yet. I don't put that many hours on it since it is for personal use only.

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Hmmm...I have a Max-Air (Read Coltri) CE90 which is a 10 cfm compressor. I was recommended to run Nuvair 455 and have been doing so since I got the compressor used. Ran a few oil changes in the beginning and now space them out a little longer. I continuously blend 32% with a bank system where the compressor runs for hours at a time, up to 5,000 psi. Never had a problem...yet. I don't put that many hours on it since it is for personal use only.

That is the same compressor type and model I was talking about. Now I am not saying that the oil was the issue here, it could have been a bad bearing from the factory that failed early. These guys changed oil every 50 hrs. I wouldn't push the 455 oil past that, as we have heard from the manufacturer of OmniLub, the oil doesn't stand up to the heat. Also, I am not sure if Nuvair is still using OmniLub for it's stock.
ZDD