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  • Carbon Monoxide in Scuba Tanks: Risks and Protection

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    The subject of CO toxicity in tank air is getting more coverage than ever before with expanded knowledge as well as available and affordable 21st century technology, but not nearly enough. Instructors, other professionals, and old-time divers aren’t saying much, but that’s either from their training or their habits from before current technologies became so available, I think.

    DAN is finally taking some actions but really needs to do more in educating divers about the risks and solutions, and I’d be writing a much shorter post here. Padi and other agencies are doing little to nothing. I guess this is more important to some here who may have personally known a diver who died from a tainted tank, or in my case are simply insulted that most fill stations will not spend pennies per tank to prevent the risks, operators are not spending 50c/day to make tank testers available to customers, and a few personal exposures I have documented.

    DAN does admit that they have no idea how many drownings are caused by CO hits, how many clinical hits are just not reported to them, how many subclinical hits are shrugged off as traveler's-flu, etc. The US standard has long been a 10 ppm max while some countries are requiring maxes of 3 or 5, in part because the effect multiplies when you breathe it at depth, in part because of the binding properties, and more - and I've found readings over 5 ppm to be pretty common actually. I fumbled with my early testing from a make-do unit and no one to tell me how at first so I only got testing proficient a few trips ago, but I have turned a boat when I found 17! My last trip was with the new Analox portable analyzer and that was so much easier. A buddy pair can easily share the costs on one for a little over $300, and it'll last at least 2 years without service - much longer if not used every day and kept in a pelican box or similar, or bite the bullet like me as a solo traveler usually and just get one.

    For an operator to provide the units and charge an extra dollar/tank for testing was suggested in discussion recently, but that would fail. Testing every tank can be boring after a few days of a trip when the tests are clean but it is all too easy for one tank in a lot to be dangerous so I keep it up. Most divers haven't read as much and will take a very erroneous attitude of "if yours is clean then I'm sure mine is" and skip the extra charge optional testing. No, the suppliers need to spend pennies a tank to ensure their air is clean, and the operators need to 50c/day so customers can confirm that. How long is may take for these practices to become common even in the Caribbean and Mexico is anyone's guess.

    Continued Page 2
    This article was originally published in forum thread: Carbon Monoxide tank risks and protections…. started by DandyDon View original post
    Comments 26 Comments
    1. SlicerDicer's Avatar
      SlicerDicer -
      I check my own gas with my CO analyzer, I am paranoid.
    1. knowone's Avatar
      knowone -
      Personally it may be considered that equally important
      with far higher statistics relative to unbenownst to them
      diver incident statistic is to be trained beyond experience
      Electronic gadget or not
      Let's say one has been present during one thousand fills
      I'm really not too sure be they 21 or other that other
      than the operator or the odd end user did much checking
      An understanding of how a hunky dory fill station should
      look and smell may perhaps be a far more legitimate for a
      life saving course than implicated fear through information


      In other words learn your stuff before you go have fun
    1. fred3798's Avatar
      fred3798 -
      I still get the sense that many experienced divers (of which I am not one) think that the concern with CO and especially the drive to buy expensive analyzers is an overkill response to a very low likelihood risk. There are lots more commonn ways to get into trouble and the reliance on yet another piece of technology perhaps sends a wrong message that we can be complacent underwater as long as we have bought enough cool stuff. I expect to buy a CO analyzer. But I am still taking the lesson - like from the recent tragedy in Cozumel - that basic buddying skills, using your training, and vigilant self-reliance (not just assuming that your DM will protect you) are required at all times. The toys can be helpful and if you can afford them, why not. But they are not a substitute for the basics. The more experience I get, the more I realize that I have to start being more self-reliant and less reliant on the DM like a newb.
    1. bleeb's Avatar
      bleeb -
      Quote Originally Posted by fred3798 View Post
      I still get the sense that many experienced divers (of which I am not one) think that the concern with CO and especially the drive to buy expensive analyzers is an overkill response to a very low likelihood risk.
      One question is whether the old belief from experienced divers that CO is infrequent is erroneous. Previously, instruments to measure CO were rare, expensive and inconvenient. It's only in the last couple of years that most measurements were not made under ideal compressor operating conditions right after the filters were changed. So previous beliefs that there were no problems were based on basically never checking.

      Now keep in mind that problems with CO depend on how much someone gets. So remembering the symptoms of CO, how many of those cases of post-dive tiredness, traveller's flu or even dry coughs might actually have been caused by a non-lethal dose of CO and other contaminants. And although panic attacks and in-water heart attacks are usually triggered by something more obvious like exertion and victims being pushed over the edge, how many of those cases were contributed to by the edges having been moved closer by CO having blocked part of the blood stream's oxygen carrying capacity?

      All of these may or may not be happening. Old 'observations' from the era when it wasn't being realistically or regularly measured aren't good evidence, so need people to get out and measure it. In the mean time, there's already a small amount of circumstantial evidence and anecdote that CO may be contaminating as much as 3-5% of all tanks in concentrations that can be medically significant, mentioned previously in this and other thread. There have also been recent reports in other threads from people who have been using these instruments that they are occasionally finding problems. So problems are happening, but the question is how often.
    1. ml3456's Avatar
      ml3456 -
      Is CO a problem? We need the facts. If someone is using an analyzer and finds tanks high in CO please post it here on SB. This will bring attention to that dive operation more than walking way and hopefully influence shops to meet our expectations and prevent a fellow diver form possibly getting a CO hit in the future.

      ML
    1. Tao of the Dive's Avatar
      Tao of the Dive -
      Quote Originally Posted by fred3798 View Post
      I still get the sense that many experienced divers (of which I am not one) think that the concern with CO and especially the drive to buy expensive analyzers is an overkill response to a very low likelihood risk. There are lots more commonn ways to get into trouble and the reliance on yet another piece of technology perhaps sends a wrong message that we can be complacent underwater as long as we have bought enough cool stuff. I expect to buy a CO analyzer. But I am still taking the lesson - like from the recent tragedy in Cozumel - that basic buddying skills, using your training, and vigilant self-reliance (not just assuming that your DM will protect you) are required at all times. The toys can be helpful and if you can afford them, why not. But they are not a substitute for the basics. The more experience I get, the more I realize that I have to start being more self-reliant and less reliant on the DM like a newb.
      However, in this case basic skills may not be enough to save ones life. CO toxicity can sort of sneak up on you, when you least expect it, rendering you unconcious before anyone can realize it. And if your buddy got his air from the same batch of tanks, or from the same faulty or poorly maintained compressor, then he too may be susceptable to that same poisoning. Basic buddy skills serve a diver, any diver greatly at any level, however they can be rendered moot when both you and your buddy are rendered incapitated oir ill at depth. And sometiems, for al lthe skill in the world, a highly trained, astute buddy may not be enough to help if you go unconscious at depth, loose your reg, and asphyxiate on water. Of course, the incident pit is never that forgiving. A more liklely scenario, is that you fall unconscious, your reg falls away, you draw in water while unconscious. Your buddy finally notices after taking pictures of a moray eel, panics, and rushes you to the surface, blowing past a safety stop or any deco obligation the two of you might have. So now in this worst case scenario, they still have to attempt reviving you, clearing your airways, hopefully getting you on O2, hopefully getting you to medical aid as soon as humanly possible, then getting you and your buddy into a chamber. What could have avoided a near death experience, two bent divers, and a small fortune in hospital costs? a $300 "toy." Most toys are not that effective.

      Suggesting that CO analyzers can be viewed as some sort of a nicky-neat toy, takes away from the true purpose of the devices. You should not look at a CO tester and think toy, you should think required tool for my trade or even life support testing. Just as you look at (hopefully) your BC or regulators being life support. If we instill this sort of thinking in new divers, then perhaps they will not view their equipment as toys or as just gear. What you are posting about is a pervasive attitude, amongst recreational divers who look at dive gear as though it is no more than snorkel gear. I think the watering down of a lot of certification programs are a direct cause of this sort of attitude. Just as a Nitrox diver would not dream(Hopefully) of not testing their Oxy content of their tank, we should not think of diving without testing the quality of our air/gas. In this instance, I would much rather decome dependant on this tool, which just may save my life, and is a far cry from becoming dependant on a dive computer for instance. Both devices give me information, however one calculates information I should be able to calculate on my own, whereas the CO checker gives me information I cannot gather otherwise.
    1. ScubaSteve1962's Avatar
      ScubaSteve1962 -
      How would this work when diving with Nitrox, are you able to test for both?

      ---------- Post added April 9th, 2012 at 02:06 PM ----------

      How would this work when diving with nitrox, would the co change the mix of nitox?
    1. Tao of the Dive's Avatar
      Tao of the Dive -
      I imagine the sensor will still pick up the CO since its designed to sense a different molecule. So for Nitrox, all you do is two separate tests, one for Oxy content, the other for CO content.
    1. runnerchic71's Avatar
      runnerchic71 -
      My husband and I are fairly new divers (less than 100 dives each). We both took the PADI open water, and Advanced, and have done nitrox training. Until recently I did not even know that CO poisoning was a potential issue with diving! I don't recall seeing that in the books, or dvds, or hearing it from a real live person. Maybe I missed it? Anyway, thank you for all the discussion, and opening my eyes to this possibility.

      I think it makes a lot of sense to get a tester and check the tanks before you dive - $300 is not a lot to spend if it could save you & your buddy's life! Any recommendations on a specific tester to purchase? Thanks for the great discussion! Headed to bed a much more educated diver!
    1. Yank's Avatar
      Yank -
      THe Analox website has an explanation and a user manual for the CO tester- EII.

      EII CO Carbon Monoxide Analyzer: Analox - Looking after the air you breathe.

      The manual states that you need both CO and O2 analyzers.

      In reply to your question whether CO changes the mix of nitrox: A toxic amount of CO would still be (same) toxic no matter how much O2 is in the mix.

      I don't know if you are suggesting that there is an inference from measuring O2 content to estimating CO content, but if so, that inference appears illogical. It would be dangerous to guess in that manner. IMHO.


      Dive Safe



      Quote Originally Posted by Incognegro View Post
      How would this work when diving with Nitrox, are you able to test for both?

      ---------- Post added April 9th, 2012 at 02:06 PM ----------

      How would this work when diving with nitrox, would the co change the mix of nitox?


      ---------- Post added April 12th, 2012 at 09:19 AM ----------

    1. mdax's Avatar
      mdax -
      There seems to be a line of thinking that people can view a fill station and "know" whether they are safe...or whether their buddies are "doing a good job". Personally I think that is silly, know of divers who have been injured and one that died from co.

      I test every single tank my wife and I breathe for o2 content and co, but then again I wear my seatbelt, monitor my blood pressure and exercise in order to keep diving as long as I can. Others can do whatever they'd like, not my problem.
      We've been testing co for over 2 years now and the current line of testers are really great, cost around 2-300 dollars and well worth the money in my opinion.
    1. Tigerman's Avatar
      Tigerman -
      Quote Originally Posted by runnerchic71 View Post
      ...
      Until recently I did not even know that CO poisoning was a potential issue with diving! I don't recall seeing that in the books, or dvds, or hearing it from a real live person. Maybe I missed it? Anyway, thank you for all the discussion, and opening my eyes to this possibility.
      ...
      Contaminated air should have been covered in your OW course. IIRC it dont go into very much detail, but it does mention making sure your air comes from a reliable source and to not breathe air that smell or taste funny. Cant recall it going into specifics of CO though other than possibly making sure the fill station dont have exhaust going out from the compressor/nearby vehicles near the air intake.
    1. oerentals's Avatar
      oerentals -
      I think random exhaust could be the unknown scary issue. I really wonder, though, how much a car or boat exhaust can contaminate an air fililng station nearby - really have no idea. But, I remember sitting on a balcony of a hotel in Key Largo a few years back watching tanks get filled on the dock while a fishing boat pulled up coughing blue smoke and tied up right next to the fill shed. I certainly cringed, but even being a diver I didn't really know or think about CO Analyzers until DandyDon got me on board his mission
    1. DandyDon's Avatar
      DandyDon -
      Quote Originally Posted by oerentals View Post
      I think random exhaust could be the unknown scary issue. I really wonder, though, how much a car or boat exhaust can contaminate an air fililng station nearby - really have no idea. But, I remember sitting on a balcony of a hotel in Key Largo a few years back watching tanks get filled on the dock while a fishing boat pulled up coughing blue smoke and tied up right next to the fill shed. I certainly cringed, but even being a diver I didn't really know or think about CO Analyzers until DandyDon got me on board his mission
      Exhausts can be a source, more so with pluming around compressors and station-wagon effects on liveaboards. However, an electric compressor with clean intake can still produce CO internally when it burns its own lubricating oil during busy periods when the machine heats up - especially in tropical climates. We now have the ability to easily test tank air, a recent innovation really. Testing dozens of tanks and getting nothing can be boring but reassuring, but the first time you see digits is eye opening. If you test a hundred tanks finding nothing, or drive 100,000 miles without a wreck - great, but knowing what you are breathing at depth and wearing seatbelts are still good ideas.
    1. Suzuki416's Avatar
      Suzuki416 -
      Quote Originally Posted by DandyDon View Post
      If you test a hundred tanks finding nothing, or drive 100,000 miles without a wreck - great, but knowing what you are breathing at depth and wearing seatbelts are still good ideas.
      It is even worse than that
      You can drive your car without a seat belt & until you crash it won't be an issue, & you may have an airbag or 3 to save you.

      but high C0 & depth = serious problem...

      We had C0 in the 3rd cylinder we ever tested

      This had been filled by a dive shop from their van.. - Diesel compressor.

      Now every cylinder gets tested - before we fill & after.
    1. nimoh's Avatar
      nimoh -
      an option for some is to purchase a CO tester as a group, assuming you either go on the same vacations, or at lease at different times.
    1. DandyDon's Avatar
      DandyDon -
      Quote Originally Posted by nimoh View Post
      an option for some is to purchase a CO tester as a group, assuming you either go on the same vacations, or at lease at different times.
      You could. Since you can now rent one of a week long trip for $35 +shipping, that sounds easiest.
    1. nimoh's Avatar
      nimoh -
      Quote Originally Posted by DandyDon View Post
      You could. Since you can now rent one of a week long trip for $35 +shipping, that sounds easiest.
      thanks, did not know about the renting option. Probably a good option for anyone that goes on one trip per year, and trusts their local fill station.
    1. DandyDon's Avatar
      DandyDon -
      Quote Originally Posted by nimoh View Post
      thanks, did not know about the renting option. Probably a good option for anyone that goes on one trip per year, and trusts their local fill station.
      It's a new option that developed after I wrote the article. See my current Sig for a link, or his...
      Quote Originally Posted by oerentals View Post
      I think random exhaust could be the unknown scary issue. I really wonder, though, how much a car or boat exhaust can contaminate an air fililng station nearby - really have no idea. But, I remember sitting on a balcony of a hotel in Key Largo a few years back watching tanks get filled on the dock while a fishing boat pulled up coughing blue smoke and tied up right next to the fill shed. I certainly cringed, but even being a diver I didn't really know or think about CO Analyzers until DandyDon got me on board his mission
    1. Johnmpcny's Avatar
      Johnmpcny -
      Quote Originally Posted by DandyDon View Post
      It's a new option that developed after I wrote the article. See my current Sig for a link, or his...
      In the mid 70's when I started "bad air" was taught as risk to be considered. NASDS of course said use only a NASDS shop to do your fill. In real life if a diver got a bad tank the word spread and said shop was black balled by divers. I am not at all sure how real it was but you would hear go here not there as the guy had done bad air fills. Some of these rumors I bet were started by the competition.

      That said I asked when I did a re-cert 2 years ago while this is not talked about, the DI said it is a non issue today and PADI does not make mention of it.
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