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Thread: In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?

 


  1. #121
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    stop me b4i post again . . .
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomthumb View Post
    What is parsing?
    Parsing is a formal grammatical term. In brief, it is the act of assigning parts of speech to words in a sentence (object, predicate, noun, verb, etc).

    I believe it was used in that post as a substitute for "evaluating" with the added senses of "separating into groups" and "rendering judgement."
    "using a Lycra skin under your wetsuit will cause a loss in thermal protection of the suit" - scuba.com
    And the SB Politeness Award goes to . . . Doc Vikingo, for "I find this assertion not compelling."

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  2. #122
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    Back to the 28 March 2012 incident, I am wondering how many divers die each year in Cozumel. Six? 15? 30?

    I only know of the ones reported on the internet but there seem to be three in the last year where the diver went up alone. Two of those were women. I doubt that any reputable dive shop wants a customer to die while on a dive with them.

    I will assert (just a guess) that far more people die from solo ascents than from any imagined CO (carbon monoxide) contamination. Yet CO contamination mitigation seems to have improved recently.

    Is it not reasonable to take steps to reduce or eliminate deaths from solo ascents? (Note: deaths from buddy pair ascents can be included if any occur).

    I cannot fix it. I can suggest it and someone on Cozumel can take the leadership role in saving lives. The dive ops can discuss the events to determine where improvements may mitigate these rare cases. I am not suggesting that current policies/protocols are negligent, but there are cases where something bad happened and changes may prevent many/most of these in the future.

    Since this is a brainstorming post, I will throw out a few known or possible policies just to start the process. Some may be unrealistic. Some may need to be modified. Dive ops can pick one or more as they see fit. I doubt that one solution is the best for everyone.

    1) Require a private divemaster for new divers with less than TBD dives. The private DM may be one day or more depending upon skill assessment of the new diver(s).

    2) Divers must ascend as a buddy pair unless the diver meets TBD experience/equipment requirements.

    3) Divers with less than TBD dives must be accompanied to the surface by the DM or another qualified/experienced diver and monitored until they are safely on a boat.

    4) DM will send up a marker device and monitor the ascending divers until they are safely on a boat.

    5) Divers descend and ascend as a group.

    There may be other options. My opinion is that the March 28, 2012 novice buddy team (reportedly less than ten dives each), were not able to safely ascend and get onto a boat. I am not suggesting that training was inadequate or that the DM failed in his responsibilities. However, newbies do not necessarily have the experience and training to cope with situations well outside of their initial training.

    Rather than try to assign blame, my view is that it makes more sense to recognize the possible vulnerability of new divers and take reasonable effort(s) to protect them.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Lee View Post
    1) Require a private divemaster for new divers with less than TBD dives. The private DM may be one day or more depending upon skill assessment of the new diver(s).
    Instead of a private DM, I'd like to see divers taken to appropriate dive sites. New divers need to be over a hard bottom that's within OW recreational range. A hard bottom and low/no current would have made this incident quite different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Lee View Post
    2) Divers must ascend as a buddy pair unless the diver meets TBD experience/equipment requirements.
    I'll buy that, except for the part after "unless". There are a number of conditions that can cause a diver to lose conciousness or muscle control upon surfacing, and experience doesn't fix any of them. I'd just require divers to ascend with their buddy, as is (should be?) taught in OW.

    flots.
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    Here comes the slippery slope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcote View Post
    Being a complete newbie (or maybe less than noob, since I am just now working on classroom work), this thread has me doubting my plans. I am working on OW so I can dive during cruise shore excursions. Cruising is something my spouse loves to do and I have recently fallen in love with diving after a discovery dive in Grand Turk. We are planning a Western Carib cruise in Dec '12 and I am working towards having my OW for diving in Grand Cayman and Cozumel. Now I'm thinking Grand Cayman will be good but Cozumel sounds like a little much, especially after reading the cruise description about diving Palancar Reef at 70-80 feet. Comments? Suggestions?

    Marc
    I suggest you look up Pedro Pablo at Blue XT-Sea. I have never seen a DM provide better individualized attention and despite my questioning the role of the DM on this thread, P-P is clearly one who puts your safety first.
    Last edited by boulderjohn; April 4th, 2012 at 09:27 PM. Reason: Fixed quote coding
    Craig66 and Basscat like this.
    Fred

  6. #126
    MMM
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    I started to respond then decided against it. It ain't that simple, IMHO. My biggest stumbling block was #5 which is dependent on SO MANY OTHER factors. Don't mean to shout but I have different views on this relative to insta-buddies and their abilities (or lack thereof, creating potential additional new risk) versus mine.

    And just to be clear, I am talking about ME deciding to ascend and having to take a potential newbie buddy with me who might themselves get into more problems than I. I just don't know how they will react and prefer not to have to deal iwth problems of 2 divers instead of one. I think that as a relatively experienced diver if I choose to ascend without a newbie insta-buddy, that I would be allowed to do so. Before doing so I would make arrangements underwater as to who my instabuddy would partner with. I would sure appreciate if an experienced diver ascended with me but I sure wouldn't expect it if they were not my buddy. I wouldn't hesitate in a heartbeat to ascend with someone else who was having problems however. There are many more comments I could add, but will leave it at that for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Lee View Post
    Back to the 28 March 2012 incident, I am wondering how many divers die each year in Cozumel. Six? 15? 30?

    I only know of the ones reported on the internet but there seem to be three in the last year where the diver went up alone. Two of those were women. I doubt that any reputable dive shop wants a customer to die while on a dive with them.

    I will assert (just a guess) that far more people die from solo ascents than from any imagined CO (carbon monoxide) contamination. Yet CO contamination mitigation seems to have improved recently.

    Is it not reasonable to take steps to reduce or eliminate deaths from solo ascents? (Note: deaths from buddy pair ascents can be included if any occur).

    I cannot fix it. I can suggest it and someone on Cozumel can take the leadership role in saving lives. The dive ops can discuss the events to determine where improvements may mitigate these rare cases. I am not suggesting that current policies/protocols are negligent, but there are cases where something bad happened and changes may prevent many/most of these in the future.

    Since this is a brainstorming post, I will throw out a few known or possible policies just to start the process. Some may be unrealistic. Some may need to be modified. Dive ops can pick one or more as they see fit. I doubt that one solution is the best for everyone.

    1) Require a private divemaster for new divers with less than TBD dives. The private DM may be one day or more depending upon skill assessment of the new diver(s).

    2) Divers must ascend as a buddy pair unless the diver meets TBD experience/equipment requirements.

    3) Divers with less than TBD dives must be accompanied to the surface by the DM or another qualified/experienced diver and monitored until they are safely on a boat.

    4) DM will send up a marker device and monitor the ascending divers until they are safely on a boat.

    5) Divers descend and ascend as a group.

    There may be other options. My opinion is that the March 28, 2012 novice buddy team (reportedly less than ten dives each), were not able to safely ascend and get onto a boat. I am not suggesting that training was inadequate or that the DM failed in his responsibilities. However, newbies do not necessarily have the experience and training to cope with situations well outside of their initial training.

    Rather than try to assign blame, my view is that it makes more sense to recognize the possible vulnerability of new divers and take reasonable effort(s) to protect them.
    Last edited by MMM; April 4th, 2012 at 10:04 PM. Reason: more thoughts
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by flots am View Post
    Instead of a private DM, I'd like to see divers taken to appropriate dive sites. New divers need to be over a hard bottom that's within OW recreational range. A hard bottom and low/no current would have made this incident quite different.

    I'll buy that, except for the part after "unless". There are a number of conditions that can cause a diver to lose conciousness or muscle control upon surfacing, and experience doesn't fix any of them. I'd just require divers to ascend with their buddy, as is (should be?) taught in OW.
    Why would anyone go to Cozumel to just dive sites with hard bottoms and no/low current (if there are any)?

    And I'll bite, what are the "number of conditions that can cause a diver to lose conciousness or muscle control upon surfacing"? I'd like to remember them for my solo dives.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mossman View Post
    Why would anyone go to Cozumel to just dive sites with hard bottoms and no/low current (if there are any)?
    I love the Cozumel diving in all its facets and I love the reef structures and architecture and there is nothing to beat the drift however there are so many reasons to come to Coz even, if as a newbie, you made the decision to stay with dives that are better suited to you. The people, the food, the atmosphere and the logistics of diving. You just can't beat the convenience of rolling out of bed onto the dock and having your dive boat pick you up right there and then. Your dive gear stored overnight for you. The surface intervals, the camaraderie esp after the ships leave town. It all makes for one amazing dive vacation and beach vacation spot.
    If I should die please do not let my wife sell my dive equipment for what I told her I paid for it

  9. #129
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    Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flots am View Post
    Instead of a private DM, I'd like to see divers taken to appropriate dive sites. New divers need to be over a hard bottom that's within OW recreational range. A hard bottom and low/no current would have made this incident quite different.

    I'll buy that, except for the part after "unless". There are a number of conditions that can cause a diver to lose conciousness or muscle control upon surfacing, and experience doesn't fix any of them. I'd just require divers to ascend with their buddy, as is (should be?) taught in OW.
    It's frightening how simple the solutions are. The buddy thing is a no-brainer. Very easy to implement, easy to enforce. There will be some who balk. (The experienced diver who's got good air management who gets teamed with a heavy breather and has to surface with 1500psi.)

    The other part would be much harder to do. It's an economics thing, many dive ops simply don't have the volume to fill multiple boats to keep the newbies on their own boat and on a easy dive site.

    BlueXTSeas' policy of making novice divers hire a private dive master is a good compromise. While they might not end up at a beginner dive site, at least they will have the full attention of a dive master looking after them.
    cvchief likes this.
    Mike

    MORE COWBELL!

  10. #130
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    is not in Coz. Boo....
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I don't think so.

    Someone following their dive training isn't playing superman.

    I don't know if you've never dived without a dive master or not, it sounds like you haven't. It's a lot different when you're about to dunk your head underwater and every decision you are going to make is up to you. That's a lot different then following head to tail a dive master for an hour. Without a dive master you have to plan your dive, and especially if you're in a group, you've got to verbalize the plan pre-dive. Work out turn around if that applies, work out hand signals, work out lost buddy procedures, work out when the dive is going to be called, work out navigation with a compass, work out everything. That's a much different exercise then just follow the leader. It doesn't make you superman, it simply makes you fully responsible and aware of your responsibility. One rule of scuba is to never dive past your training. So if you aren't ready to dive without a dive master you shouldn't. If you're ready then you are. No superman, just following the guidelines and training level you are at. When you dive without a DM, you in short are becoming that DM that you're use to following around. I don't know how diving without a dive master would make you complacent, it should be the exact opposite effect on you.
    Ah, you miss my point grasshopper. To quote the President of the Federation: Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily mean we must do that thing.

    Just because we CAN dive without a DM does not mean we should dive without a DM. That is the path to the dark side. If you are truly into being prepared, why would you not take an experienced local professional? Is it to provide that additional challenge and risk? Are you less prepared when you dive Coz because you have a DM with you?



    As a DM once told me:
    Ready are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained divers. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. A diver must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A diver craves not these things. "

    (Wait that was anger that was the path to the dark side right? WAIT, did I just change the movie I was alluding to three times? Confusing am I....)

    Honestly though when I read the part about its alot different 'when you dunk you head', etc etc, I sorta heard it in John Wayne's voice.....
    In the air to Cozumel in (imagine a counter counting down to I DON'T KNOW!!!.)

    Casa De Jefe, Your Home in Cozumel

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