Horrible Customer Service Experience

[hongrace]

Cause of the bladder damage is very obvious. When the bladder is removed from the wing and laid flat, and a back plate is placed over the bladder the slice in the bladder lines up with the bottom corner of the back plate.

I can reproduce this exact type of damage 10 out of 10 tries by dropping a back plate edge wise on a wing.

This doesn't happen by packing a wing in a suit case.

This doesn't happen while the wing is in storage.

This doesn't happen spontaneously, it happens when a backplate is dropped on a wing.

Tobin

Hi Tobin,

How can a backplate drop onto a wing? When it is seperated? or when it is attached to the wing and a tank and the whole assembly is placed carelessly on a bench or on ground or on the floor of the boat?

I am not here to pick up a fight. I am just interested in this thread and would like to learn to use my equipment wisely. I have emailed Tobin asking the fitting of their wings to my existing backplate and I found he is always patient to answer my stupid questions.

[ktomlinson]

Cause of the bladder damage is very obvious. When the bladder is removed from the wing and laid flat, and a back plate is placed over the bladder the slice in the bladder lines up with the bottom corner of the back plate.

I can reproduce this exact type of damage 10 out of 10 tries by dropping a back plate edge wise on a wing.

This doesn't happen by packing a wing in a suit case.

This doesn't happen while the wing is in storage.

This doesn't happen spontaneously, it happens when a backplate is dropped on a wing.

Tobin

I understand what you're saying, I'm inclined to believe your take on the situation, but it is not the point I was talking about. I don't even disagree that you should aggressively defend your company on this forum.

[jar546]

Simply based on the responses and questioning by DSS I am sure I will not be purchasing any of their products anytime soon.

Does DSS have a written procedure for packing gear for travel?
Is it reasonable that life support gear should be able to be packed in a suitcase with clothes without fear of damaging a bladder?
Some people are good at what they do or very technically smart but do not understand business. Win a battle but at what cost?

[cool_hardware52]

Hi Tobin,

How can a backplate drop onto a wing? When it is seperated? or when it is attached to the wing and a tank and the whole assembly is placed carelessly on a bench or on ground or on the floor of the boat?

I am not here to pick up a fight. I am just interested in this thread and would like to learn to use my equipment wisely. I have emailed Tobin asking the fitting of their wings to my existing backplate and I found he is always patient to answer my stupid questions.

hongrace,

Reasonable question.

Imagine you are holding your 5-6 lbs back plate by one upper corner, and the plate is hanging vertically 6-8 inches above your bare foot.

Now drop it on your big toe! Gunna leave a mark!

Now imagine you have a BP&W with no cylinder attached. Hold it by one upper shoulder strap and again drop it 6-8 inches onto the sidewalk or boat deck, but this time the lower corner of the wing is between the plate and the side walk.

The inner bladder will be pinched. It the same effect as riding your bicycle into a curb, the inner tube is pinched between the tire casing and the rim.

We have a video on our website that details this issue and tips on how to avoid it.

https://www.deepseasupply.com/templates/wingdamage.html


BTW, we are now using inner bladders that are more than twice as thick as the bladder shown in the video. Thick resilient outer shell materials and thick inner bladders can absorb more energy, and energy attenuation has proven to be the most effect way to reduce pinch failures, but with enough energy on a small area any material combination will fail.

Tobin

[cool_hardware52]

Simply based on the responses and questioning by DSS I am sure I will not be purchasing any of their products anytime soon.


Does DSS have a written procedure for packing gear for travel?

Does any wing manufacturer have such policy?

Is it reasonable that life support gear should be able to be packed in a suitcase with clothes without fear of damaging a bladder?

Wings don't fail from being packed in a suit case. Wings fail from impacts.

Tobin

[jar546]

So let me get this straight. Your marketing says this:

No Zipper! These new wings are sewn shut. The heavy duty 22 mil(some of their products are 30 mil) urethane bladder material eliminates the need to access the bladder via a zipper. No zipper to fail, or get pinched between the tank and plate. Simple, clean clutter free wing design.

So you are telling me that the edge of the plate came down hard before any use and pinched the bladder between the covering material on 2 sides enough to put a hole in the bladder twice?

Maybe your bladder edges need to be rolled more to eliminate this problem. If there is no damage to the material in the affected area I am doubting that there would be enough pressure to pinch a hole in such an elastic bladder.

Did the manufacturer do testing with downward pressure from a stock plate to determine the amount of force needed to create a hole in the bladder? This data could be used to determine if the plates need additional binding on the edges or if the material that protects the bladder needs to be reinforced in those areas.

[Tortuga68]

If your BC is "life support" then you probably have bigger problems to deal with than how to pack your suitacse

[deepstops]

Just a thought..... Were the wing and BP packed together in the suitcase?? Were things able to move around inside the suitcase?? Was it carry-on or checked baggage? If it was a checked bag, no telling what the TSA inspectors or the baggage handlers did with it.

This is just me but I travel a fair amount, often with scuba gear. I have a Travel Pro rollerboard carry-on bag that will hold a BP, wing, DR wreck canister light, back-up lights, single reg set-up, etc. I use a 3mm wetsuit to pack and protect. The *only* item that will not fit in that bag are my jet fins. I've been as far as Truk Lagoon with this set-up and never had a gear issue and it never gets lost or stolen because it's carry-on. The only time it's ever been an issue for security was in Japan, where they weren't too thrilled with my SLA battery until I showed them some paperwork.

[Pullmyfinger]

Simply based on the responses and questioning by DSS I am sure I will not be purchasing any of their products anytime soon.

Does DSS have a written procedure for packing gear for travel?
Is it reasonable that life support gear should be able to be packed in a suitcase with clothes without fear of damaging a bladder?
Some people are good at what they do or very technically smart but do not understand business. Win a battle but at what cost?

That assumes you believe the wing was damaged from a pinch flat while in a suit case.
I've been on dive trips where boat crew try to set up and disassemble my gear (My DSS rig in Yap was just thrown on the dock along with everyone else's gear) , perhaps this is what caused the pinch flat damages.

Although my wing wasn't damaged on Yap, I've since learned not to let boat crew touch my gear.

My wife's Poseidon regs were just immersed in a dunk tank by similarly "helpful" crew. If you don't specifically tell crew not to touch your stuff....your stuff is getting touched and moved around whether most divers realize it or not.

When I travel in Micronesia I tip the crew up front and specify that I don't want anyone handling my gear. In Yap all I want from the boat crew is banana bread and hot tea....maybe some beetle nut.

I always keep plates and wings separate.

-Mitch

[cool_hardware52]

So you are telling me that the edge of the plate came down hard before any use and pinched the bladder between the covering material on 2 sides enough to put a hole in the bladder twice?

It only takes one impact to "hole" a bladder. I doubt you are going to find any wing manufacturer that recommends their goods be subjected to high point load impacts. I can take a brand new, defect free wing, and pinch a hole in the bladder in a matter of seconds.

Maybe your bladder edges need to be rolled more to eliminate this problem. If there is no damage to the material in the affected area I am doubting that there would be enough pressure to pinch a hole in such an elastic bladder.

??? Rolled edges on a bladder? Do you have any idea about how bladders and or wings are actually made?

Did the manufacturer do testing with downward pressure from a stock plate to determine the amount of force needed to create a hole in the bladder? This data could be used to determine if the plates need additional binding on the edges or if the material that protects the bladder needs to be reinforced in those areas.

The inner tubes in bike tires are routinely "pinched" when a cyclist hits a curb. This is the source of "snake bite" flats. Would you suggest that bike tire casings need to be changed to protect the inner tube, or that cyclists should avoid riding into curbs? Usually when a bike tube is "snake bit" there is no damage to the tire casing.

We have actually done quite a bit of quantitative testing of various shell and bladder material combinations for impact resistance. The 1050 ballistic + heavy gauge urethane film outperformed all others tested. The fact remains that every combination of materials in common use today will fail with sufficient impact energy.

Back plates are the most common source of pinch flats, they aren't the only source. Wings are a flexible, inflatable device. Unless you built them like the hulls on a Zodiac there will always be the chance of pinching one.

The reality is most divers don't pinch flat their wings, and most cyclists don't pinch flat their inner tubes simply because they both exercise reasonable care to avoid impacts.

Tobin