Scootering into high flow cave and running line at the same time

[Dan Gibson]

RTodd,

Please describe how you one pulls this off. I'm told it's doable, but I have never really seen it in practice and one handed tie offs seem impossible on the surface to me. I see images of bird nests and a scooter smashing into ones face if you don't stay on the trigger and maintain tension on the reel. I have never had this described to me other than someone telling me you have to stay on the trigger. What's the real story here?

 

[RTodd]

RTodd,

Please describe how you one pulls this off. I'm told it's doable, but I have never really seen it in practice and one handed tie offs seem impossible on the surface to me. I see images of bird nests and a scooter smashing into ones face if you don't stay on the trigger and maintain tension on the reel. I have never had this described to me other than someone telling me you have to stay on the trigger. What's the real story here?

Don't address this one to me. I don't like being the reel guy. In high flow cave, particularly small twisty entrances, often the easiest thing to do is to tow your buddies scooter in and have them swim the line until you are really comfortable with lines and scooters. But, it is doable on the scooter. For instance at Little River, tie off in open water and get yourself settled. Then, move to the left where you are out of the flow for your secondary. Stop the scooter, tie in, drop deco bottles. Then, just run line. Your buddy is responsble for wraps.

The trick is to lay the line well so it is easy for your buddy to secure the line were it needs to be secured. I can't describe this in writing but if you cup your hand so all of your fingers are basically touching and "roll your hand around" the line, depending on the direction you roll you will create a locking wrap for a line that goes to the right or one that goes to the left from the object being tied to. Quick and easy to do once you get the hang of it without really coming off the trigger much.

 

[Jason B]

For instance at Little River, tie off in open water and get yourself settled.

Maybe this should be in another thread but I'll ask here.
When you say in OW are you referring to the threaded rod (which I think is not technically OW but where I was taught to put in the primary).

How about a system like Peacock where the lines are run to OW (not really OW but about 2ft from it), do you run a primary or use the gold line?

 

[RTodd]

Maybe this should be in another thread but I'll ask here.
When you say in OW are you referring to the threaded rod (which I think is not technically OW but where I was taught to put in the primary).

How about a system like Peacock where the lines are run to OW (not really OW but about 2ft from it), do you run a primary or use the gold line?

Dangit, I specifically said open water to avoid the rod discussion. The problem with this site is that due to the non-diving traffic, there is a good chance of your line getting messed with (inadvertently) if you don't tie to the rod. On a night dive, I would recommend going to open water.

I haven't been to Peacock in a very long time. In Mexico and other areas where we run permanent lines they generally go all the way to a location at the surface which is ideal. Stuff that goes just short, the correct answer is run a line. But, reality says that it really depends on the nature of the opening, its ability to get distrubed, etc. I tend to use a spool if a really short connection is needed.

Years ago I had become lax about running primaries in caves I knew well until I started diving with Chris and Danny. They ran one every time no matter what because it is easy to do and doesn't really waste gas on the shallower Mexico stuff. Now, I run them everywhere too because it just isn't worth not doing. The catch 22 is that when you are new it burns a fair amount of your penetration gas. When you get much more experience and could arguably get away with skipping a primary it doesn't really add any significant time to your entry or increase gas usage. So, for people in either category the right answer is to run a line.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Edit: See reference to rebar

I have seen the hand roll method in some videos, but could never really tell what was going on. Either we were not taught during class or I was in a totally different zone when it was talked about. I'll have to play with some line around the house and practice that method.

We were told it's possible to run line into Devils Ear while scootering during our class, but I wasn't really sure if the lead guy was doing it all or had help. I do understand the number two guy towing in a scooter while the first guy lays the line. It seems the most logical method since coming off the trigger in a place like the Ear could be really bad if you then let go of the scooter. I got the impression a single person would have to be able to do it all during the cave 3 classes. Maybe the instructor was just messin' with my head.

btw, Where exactly left at LR are you making the second tie off? I assume by OW you mean the rebar as the first tie in unless conditions in the basin are so bad that a line is run much farther out. Someone is usually on deco in the alcove to the left and that dropoff just after the rebar doesn't promote finding a really good secondary point. I hate seeing the line float up in that area. I know a good spot just before the bend for the final wrap, but between the rebar and this point has always puzzled me. I dislike being the reel man in this cave more than any other as I just don't have it figured out to my satisfaction and probably the next teams either.

I will liely be there next week with a buddy (strictly swimming dives) and want to improve on the spots I pick for tie offs. I have seens way too many lines floating around there in the past.

Don't address this one to me. I don't like being the reel guy. In high flow cave, particularly small twisty entrances, often the easiest thing to do is to tow your buddies scooter in and have them swim the line until you are really comfortable with lines and scooters. But, it is doable on the scooter. For instance at Little River, tie off in open water and get yourself settled. Then, move to the left where you are out of the flow for your secondary. Stop the scooter, tie in, drop deco bottles. Then, just run line. Your buddy is responsble for wraps.

The trick is to lay the line well so it is easy for your buddy to secure the line were it needs to be secured. I can't describe this in writing but if you cup your hand so all of your fingers are basically touching and "roll your hand around" the line, depending on the direction you roll you will create a locking wrap for a line that goes to the right or one that goes to the left from the object being tied to. Quick and easy to do once you get the hang of it without really coming off the trigger much.

 

[SparticleBrane]

The trick is to lay the line well so it is easy for your buddy to secure the line were it needs to be secured. I can't describe this in writing but if you cup your hand so all of your fingers are basically touching and "roll your hand around" the line, depending on the direction you roll you will create a locking wrap for a line that goes to the right or one that goes to the left from the object being tied to. Quick and easy to do once you get the hang of it without really coming off the trigger much.

Look anything like this?

 

[Dan Gibson]

That's one of the videos I have seen. Time to practice! It looks easier than what I have been doing.

Look anything like this?

 

[Jason B]

Dangit, I specifically said open water to avoid the rod discussion.

LOL!
Sorry but I do appreciate your answering it.

 

[rjack321]

except for the damned dark part, yes.

Best I can describe... Its a double twist, then drop onto the open station. You can't be putting too much tension on the line or twist #1 cinches down on your hand/fingers.

Twist #1 gets you 180 deg and a simple loop
Twist #2 gets you 360 deg and a simple loop to put around the object and a second locking line-to-line twist.

 

[RTodd]

Edit: See reference to rebar

I have seen the hand roll method in some videos, but could never really tell what was going on. Either we were not taught during class or I was in a totally different zone when it was talked about. I'll have to play with some line around the house and practice that method.

We were told it's possible to run line into Devils Ear while scootering during our class, but I wasn't really sure if the lead guy was doing it all or had help. I do understand the number two guy towing in a scooter while the first guy lays the line. It seems the most logical method since coming off the trigger in a place like the Ear could be really bad if you then let go of the scooter. I got the impression a single person would have to be able to do it all during the cave 3 classes. Maybe the instructor was just messin' with my head.

btw, Where exactly left at LR are you making the second tie off? I assume by OW you mean the rebar as the first tie in unless conditions in the basin are so bad that a line is run much farther out. Someone is usually on deco in the alcove to the left and that dropoff just after the rebar doesn't promote finding a really good secondary point. I hate seeing the line float up in that area. I know a good spot just before the bend for the final wrap, but between the rebar and this point has always puzzled me. I dislike being the reel man in this cave more than any other as I just don't have it figured out to my satisfaction and probably the next teams either.

I will liely be there next week with a buddy (strictly swimming dives) and want to improve on the spots I pick for tie offs. I have seens way too many lines floating around there in the past.

The first alcove is too close anyway. The second larger area going deeper around 30' (I think haven't been in LR in some time either) has a few good places on the slope. off to the left then, when you cross back to the right keep it low and tuck it low when you go left down the chimney? Make sense? You are basically running along the left side of the cave gong in.

The Ear actually isn't that hard. Keep the scooter under you tie off low on the right wall. Immediately go to your right and get out of the flow a bit as you come in. Again, keep the scooter clean and under you while you do this. I basically push it into the rocks here if the flow is trying to move it around. Tuck a rock and go straight up. But, I prefer to use the Eye because deco is more pleasant and there you have less flow to deal with. I really haven't been to these caves in a while so the local guys probably have better tips than I do.

Can't see the videos, will check at home.