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Personally, I got tired of replacing 6" hoses that were weather checking from the tight bends.
I agree. After having the same 6" hoses on my stage regs for the past 6 years I'm finding that I'm having to replace them because they are starting to show wear. Bummer.
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In addition, a 2" or 2.5" SPG on a short hose presents several line traps and is generally more exposed and prone to impact.
It's on a flexible hose held in place with rubber or bungee. If it impacts it gives. Unlike your button gauge.
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In the past I agreed the smallish 1/2" button gauges were indeed too small to read easily under water. However the current crop of 1" button gauges are quite easy to read under water - and I have 43 year old eyes. I suspect the younger DIR divers can see them at least as well. You can still see them just fine when you breathe down the reg during the gas switch.
It's not always just you that needs to see it.
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In my opinion the functions of deco regs and stage regs do differ in terms of both depth and mixes used.
Yes, well, quite frankly your opinion doesn't amount to much here.
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- which apparently means I am not DIR enough to satisfy those DIR divers who are thoroughly (overly?)indoctrinated.
Rule 2.
__________________
Brian
My crappy website - members.shaw.ca/nadwidny
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These 3 members have said "Thank you." to nadwidny for this useful post:
This thread has certainly provided some interesting reading, and I think that the original question has definitely been answered. As someone who is not GUE/DIR trained all I have is an understanding of DIR from the reading I have done (GUE's website, Doing it Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving and Getting Clear on the Basics: The Fundamentals of Technical Diving) and from talking to more experienced DIR divers. I debated whether to respond or not, but I think some things need more emphasis.
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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
Personally, I got tired of replacing 6" hoses that were weather checking from the tight bends. They were at best a crutch but an acceptable one as they were the best option available at the time.
In addition, a 2" or 2.5" SPG on a short hose presents several line traps and is generally more exposed and prone to impact.
In the same fashion every regulator hose, every stage/deco bottle, and every little thing exposed is a line trap and entanglement hazard. Should you seek to minimize those hazards? Of course, but at the same time if that line is going to catch your SPG hose, then it's probably also going to catch the regulator hose, and it's not like a line couldn't get caught around the button gauge. I see it this way, my 7' long hose is more of an entanglement hazard than my old short hose, but the potential benefits of the switch should I need to share air are greater than the added risk. In the same sense the benefits of an SPG on a hose secured to a stage/deco bottle outweigh the reduction in risk associated with using a button gauge (if it can be considered a reduction in the first place).
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In the past I agreed the smallish 1/2" button gauges were indeed too small to read easily under water. However the current crop of 1" button gauges are quite easy to read under water - and I have 43 year old eyes. I suspect the younger DIR divers can see them at least as well. You can still see them just fine when you breathe down the reg during the gas switch.
Whether your particular reg points the gauge in the right direction is another issue. Personally I have no problems with the standard Mk 5/10/20/25 layout.
As others have mentioned, it's not just if you can see the gauge. DIR diving has a strong emphasis on buddy skills and team diving. Button gauges both reduce the accuracy of the reading (at least now they do) and make it harder for your buddy to see your gauges. It's easier for someone to turn an SPG on a hose to look at the pressure, then it is for them to orient themselves to be in the more limited field of view of the button gauge.
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In my opinion the functions of deco regs and stage regs do differ in terms of both depth and mixes used. Can one reg do both? Yes. Is it optimum? No.
Every regulator has its own limitations of course. But from most of the reading into DIR I've done it seems that if you dedicate regulators to specific mixes/tanks, then the feeling is you'll be more likely to switch to the wrong gas at depth by using the regulator as identification rather than the tank markings. For example if your deco mixes are all in 40 cf AL tanks painted the same color and you accidentally place the regulator you "always" place on the deepest mix on your oxygen bottle, then switching to your deep mix regulator at depth could cause you to unknowingly switch to Oxygen. So is dedicating your regulators to individual mixes optimal? For those who dive DIR the risk of misidentifying your stage/deco at depth makes it less optimal than having regulators that can be switched between bottles without worry.
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Also, I am suggesting that all SPG's are potentially innaccurate. What I am suggesting in terms of pre-dive checks is to check the deco tank(s) pressure(s) with a dedicated and known to be accurate pressure gauge (not an SPG) prior to the dive.
Everyone should be checking tank pressures and verifying mixtures prior to the dive. That is certainly agreed upon.
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What I am also suggesting is that we actually advance our configurations and procedures as equipment evolves rather than blindly doing only what was done in the past - which apparently means I am not DIR enough to satisfy those DIR divers who are thoroughly (overly?)indoctrinated.
Until button gauges deliver readings to the 100 psi, and until it's not harder for the team divers to read that gauge than it's not a step forward and it's not advancing the configuration.
As I stated at the beginning of this post, I'm not DIR trained. I've just done my research on the configuration in part of my preparation for training. If any of the things I've said aren't DIR or contradict DIR principles then please point them out, but my statements above reflect my understanding of DIR diving at this time.
-Dave
__________________
Some people think I'm crazy, but those are the same people who've only ever seen the beauty of the ocean's depths from pictures others have taken.
"It is better to remain silent and appear a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
Most of my stage/deco first stages are Apeks DS4s - the way they are configured, with the HP port pointing down when the regs are attached to the bottles, there's no way I would be able to see the SPG if I was to use button gauges...
From my limited experience (mainly with MK2s, MK20/25s, DS4/DSTs), with the way the bottles hang (on the left), it's somewhat difficult to see a button gauge on any first stage, not just the DS4s. With a "fulll size" SPG on a 6" hose, one could twist the face of the SPG to an angle that allow clear viewing. It's nice just to be able to glance quickly at a big, clear "display" and not have to touch the bottle or bring it up close to view the pressure.
__________________
The way is to the destructive element submit yourself,
and with the exertions of your hands and feet in the water
make the deep, deep sea keep you up...
Button gauges do not have the accuracy required. I have yet to see one in graduations of 100 psi. Please post photos to show this on a one inch or smaller face where the needle itself does not obscure at least several hundred psi if such an item exists. You may chose to calculate thirds at depth (wrecks, caves, whatever) with a button gauge but you won't be diving with me or anyone I know.
Also, if you want to be insulting as you are in the last part of your post, I suggest you leave this forum.
You are not hearing what I am saying. On a stage I am more than happy to accept the neccesity of a hose and a larger SPG. I see no need at all for on on a deco bottle - you have the gas you have and if you screwed up the planning an SPG with 100 psi increments that you and your buddies can read is not going to save you.
As for the last statement being insulting its not. You may not like it but it is what it is. DIR is a philosophy that allows evolution and change, the view that it is not is one often expoused by divers who have been indoctrinated to belive it is not. Personally, I see no advantage to accepting anything blindly but instead prefer to keep an open mind and explore new options as they become available.
As for leaving the formum - you get it changed from the "DIR" forum to the "GUE" forum and I promise I'll leave nd never come back - until then you are gonna have to tolerate views of less dogmatic DIR divers.
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but rather by the number of moments that take your breath away.
Every regulator has its own limitations of course. But from most of the reading into DIR I've done it seems that if you dedicate regulators to specific mixes/tanks, then the feeling is you'll be more likely to switch to the wrong gas at depth by using the regulator as identification rather than the tank markings. For example if your deco mixes are all in 40 cf AL tanks painted the same color and you accidentally place the regulator you "always" place on the deepest mix on your oxygen bottle, then switching to your deep mix regulator at depth could cause you to unknowingly switch to Oxygen. So is dedicating your regulators to individual mixes optimal? For those who dive DIR the risk of misidentifying your stage/deco at depth makes it less optimal than having regulators that can be switched between bottles without worry.
I appreciate your well thought out post. In terms of "dedicated" regs, I agree to a point. Realistically all my deco and stage regs are basically the same, the primary difference being the use of an SPG on the stage regs.
I can see where there might be some concern for a diver using a familiar reg to ID tank/mix, but the real problem is not the reg but instead the diver not adhearing to proper and safe procedures. Consider what happens in zero visibility where you cannot read the tank markings. In that case, I'll take whatever advanatgage I can get in identifying a tank and feeling the lack of an SPG on a first stage would be a strong indication that this may not be the gas I want at depth. It adds one more protection against making an incorrect gas switch - which is still the number 1 killer of technical divers.
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but rather by the number of moments that take your breath away.
You are not hearing what I am saying. On a stage I am more than happy to accept the neccesity of a hose and a larger SPG. I see no need at all for on on a deco bottle - you have the gas you have and if you screwed up the planning an SPG with 100 psi increments that you and your buddies can read is not going to save you.
It's interesting / funny to read you accusing others about not listening and at the same time you simply ignore the fact that DIR doesn't know difference between deco and stage regulators. And it's not some kind of DIR dogma; it practice that's simply based on fact that these regulators can and should be interchangable.
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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
As for leaving the formum - you get it changed from the "DIR" forum to the "GUE" forum and I promise I'll leave nd never come back - until then you are gonna have to tolerate views of less dogmatic DIR divers.
We all have different styles of defending our positions and have different abbilities in putting our thoughts in words. DIR is far away from being dogmatic and you know that. But whenever agruments are missing a claptrap "dogmatic" is thrown.
...reading...enjoying.... trying to pull out data....
Let me see if I can re-state (bottom line) what I'm reading in a way that's simple enough for even me...
All stage/deco regs should be interchangeable and therefor include an accurate (relatively) SPG.
Button gages are not accurate enough.
That about it?
The discussion isn't about hoses or DIR dogma or how certain personalities post. It's about, are button gages DIR, right?
__________________
A legitimate adventure has no predetermined outcome. - Chatterton
A flawlessly working rebreather is almost as dangerous as a completely unreliable unit since reliability encourages complacency. - Howard Hall stating the Richard Pyle Paradox
Decompression algorithms are akin to measuring with a micrometer, marking with chalk and cutting with an ax. - Rick Murchison
You are not hearing what I am saying. On a stage I am more than happy to accept the neccesity of a hose and a larger SPG. I see no need at all for on on a deco bottle - you have the gas you have and if you screwed up the planning an SPG with 100 psi increments that you and your buddies can read is not going to save you.
As for the last statement being insulting its not. You may not like it but it is what it is. DIR is a philosophy that allows evolution and change, the view that it is not is one often expoused by divers who have been indoctrinated to belive it is not. Personally, I see no advantage to accepting anything blindly but instead prefer to keep an open mind and explore new options as they become available.
As for leaving the formum - you get it changed from the "DIR" forum to the "GUE" forum and I promise I'll leave nd never come back - until then you are gonna have to tolerate views of less dogmatic DIR divers.
You are alone in believing that your tone and part of your post was not insulting.
Good luck with your button gauges and your version of DIR.
This thread has certainly provided some interesting reading, and I think that the original question has definitely been answered. As someone who is not GUE/DIR trained all I have is an understanding of DIR from the reading I have done (GUE's website, Doing it Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving and Getting Clear on the Basics: The Fundamentals of Technical Diving) and from talking to more experienced DIR divers. I debated whether to respond or not, but I think some things need more emphasis.
In the same fashion every regulator hose, every stage/deco bottle, and every little thing exposed is a line trap and entanglement hazard. Should you seek to minimize those hazards? Of course, but at the same time if that line is going to catch your SPG hose, then it's probably also going to catch the regulator hose, and it's not like a line couldn't get caught around the button gauge. I see it this way, my 7' long hose is more of an entanglement hazard than my old short hose, but the potential benefits of the switch should I need to share air are greater than the added risk. In the same sense the benefits of an SPG on a hose secured to a stage/deco bottle outweigh the reduction in risk associated with using a button gauge (if it can be considered a reduction in the first place).
As others have mentioned, it's not just if you can see the gauge. DIR diving has a strong emphasis on buddy skills and team diving. Button gauges both reduce the accuracy of the reading (at least now they do) and make it harder for your buddy to see your gauges. It's easier for someone to turn an SPG on a hose to look at the pressure, then it is for them to orient themselves to be in the more limited field of view of the button gauge.
Every regulator has its own limitations of course. But from most of the reading into DIR I've done it seems that if you dedicate regulators to specific mixes/tanks, then the feeling is you'll be more likely to switch to the wrong gas at depth by using the regulator as identification rather than the tank markings. For example if your deco mixes are all in 40 cf AL tanks painted the same color and you accidentally place the regulator you "always" place on the deepest mix on your oxygen bottle, then switching to your deep mix regulator at depth could cause you to unknowingly switch to Oxygen. So is dedicating your regulators to individual mixes optimal? For those who dive DIR the risk of misidentifying your stage/deco at depth makes it less optimal than having regulators that can be switched between bottles without worry.
Everyone should be checking tank pressures and verifying mixtures prior to the dive. That is certainly agreed upon.
Until button gauges deliver readings to the 100 psi, and until it's not harder for the team divers to read that gauge than it's not a step forward and it's not advancing the configuration.
As I stated at the beginning of this post, I'm not DIR trained. I've just done my research on the configuration in part of my preparation for training. If any of the things I've said aren't DIR or contradict DIR principles then please point them out, but my statements above reflect my understanding of DIR diving at this time.
-Dave
Well thought out Dave. Best of luck with your training. You have the proper mindset for this type of diving and that is the most difficult part to develop, as other posts in this thread have shown.
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